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CJceltics33 Veteran Member
Joined: 24 Aug 2017 Posts: 475
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Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2022 2:03 pm Post subject: fast improvisation |
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How do I improvise faster? I realize the answer is "more practice" but I'm curious what faster improvisation comes from. Is it faster thinking through the chords? More familiar with patterns? More knowledge of what to play through changes?
What can I practice to work on this? Been doing choruses of just quarters, then just eighths, to try and get faster. What else can I do? Many thanks |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3306 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2022 2:24 pm Post subject: |
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My belief (and no, I can't do it) is that on-the-spot improvising requires 2 primary things -
1) 'knowing' where you're going (with little need to think about it) by just having the 'feel'
and
2) being able to get there - the notes (with little need to think about it)
It's probably (like I said, I can't do it) a matter of training your body to follow your mind (be able to play the right notes), and training your mind to go on the 'right path'.
The 'learning to improvise' books, theory, practice routines, etc. have the goal of instilling the skill and ability to do those 2 things. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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TrumpetMD Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Oct 2008 Posts: 2415 Location: Maryland
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Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2022 2:41 pm Post subject: Re: fast improvisation |
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CJceltics33 wrote: | How do I improvise faster? I realize the answer is "more practice" but I'm curious what faster improvisation comes from. Is it faster thinking through the chords? More familiar with patterns? More knowledge of what to play through changes?
What can I practice to work on this? Been doing choruses of just quarters, then just eighths, to try and get faster. What else can I do? Many thanks |
These fast runs are the result of dedicated practice. Often when you hear someone improvising fast, they are playing patterns (or variations of patterns) they have practiced over-and-over.
For me personally, as part of my practice, I do the following. I play my jazz scales and arpeggios (from memory) as fast as possible. I also have a set of 2-5-1 patterns (linear, arpeggiated, chromatic, and pentatonic) that I practice as fast as possible.
Are you working from a jazz method book?
Mike _________________ Bach Stradivarius 43* Trumpet (1974), Bach 6C Mouthpiece.
Bach Stradivarius 184 Cornet (1988), Yamaha 13E4 Mouthpiece
Olds L-12 Flugelhorn (1969), Yamaha 13F4 Mouthpiece.
Plus a few other Bach, Getzen, Olds, Carol, HN White, and Besson horns. |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9027 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2022 3:25 pm Post subject: |
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Transcribe and play solos along with the recording. Break the solo up into licks that mean something to you, learn them and see how they fit into the underlying harmony. Practice them in all keys. Do them until they're second nature. Play them faster and faster.
Learn all your scales and chords until you don't have to think of them.
Really think about this quote and ALL that it means: "First you learn your instrument, then you learn the music, then you forget all that and just play “. Charlie Parker.
Remember, jazz is an aural art. Listen, copy, play; Listen, copy, play; Listen, copy, play. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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CJceltics33 Veteran Member
Joined: 24 Aug 2017 Posts: 475
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Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2022 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks so much for the replies. That makes a lot of sense.
TrumpetMD, I am working from "Jazz Patterns' and 'Daily Dose of Scales for Improvisation' as well as some standards. Anything else you'd recommend? What jazz scales are you practicing? Thanks |
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PH Bill Adam/Carmine Caruso Forum Moderator
Joined: 26 Nov 2001 Posts: 5860 Location: New Albany, Indiana
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Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2022 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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All of my 16th note lines are the 8th note lines I have played thousands of times. That is true for every professional level improviser I know.
One thing that might help is to think of the tempo in half time. In other words if the tune is a medium tempo swing at circa 120 beats a minute tap your foot on 1 & 3 (like cut time) and think of the tune as a ballad at 60bpm. This slows your thinking down & creates more of a focus on melodic playing. After this is comfortable, increase the tempo and continue to think in half time. Eventually, you will be thinking like you are playing 120bpm medium swing (and sometimes running double time lines) while the band is cruising along at 240bpm.
This really helped me. I first got the idea from talking to Hal Galper. He talks about it in his excellent book, "Forward Motion." _________________ Bach trumpet artist-clinician
Clinical Professor of Jazz Trumpet, University of Illinois
Professor Emeritus of Jazz Studies, Indiana University Jacobs School of Music
Faculty Jamey Aebersold Jazz Workshops 1976-2019
JazzRetreats.com |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9027 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2022 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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CJceltics33 wrote: | Thanks so much for the replies. That makes a lot of sense.
TrumpetMD, I am working from "Jazz Patterns' and 'Daily Dose of Scales for Improvisation' as well as some standards. Anything else you'd recommend? What jazz scales are you practicing? Thanks |
Patterns for Jazz, Jerry Coker
Jazz Improvisation, the Goal Note Method, Sheldon Berg
Scales for Jazz Improvisation, Dan Haerle _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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Dayton Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Mar 2013 Posts: 2041 Location: USA
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Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2022 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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Check out Rich Willey's Improv Speed Builders. |
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TrumpetMD Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Oct 2008 Posts: 2415 Location: Maryland
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Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2022 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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CJceltics33 wrote: | Thanks so much for the replies. That makes a lot of sense.
TrumpetMD, I am working from "Jazz Patterns' and 'Daily Dose of Scales for Improvisation' as well as some standards. Anything else you'd recommend? What jazz scales are you practicing? Thanks |
Scales I practice regularly include: major, lydian, dorian, dominant, half diminished, diminished whole tone, diminished, whole tone, natural and harmonic minor, pentatonic, minor blues, major blues, and bebop (major, dominant, dorian).
I have a daily maintenance routine, focusing on 1 key per day, so I cover all 12 keys about once every 2 weeks. I do everything from memory. And the routine takes about 20 minutes to complete. This includes scales, 3-note and 4-note patterns, arpeggiated patterns, linear and chromatic patterns, and 2-5 patterns. Then I practice major blues, minor blues, and rhythm changes in the key I'm working on that day.
Kehaulani listed some good resources in his reply. I've used are Scales for Jazz Improvisation by Dan Haerle, which is fairly exhaustive, but doesn't include blues or bebop scales. Also Jamey Aebersold, either his free jazz handbook, or any of the early play-along volumes (1,2,or3), which contain some of the more important jazz scales.
A good source for patterns that I've used are Aebersold volumes 1,2,and 3, which contain some introductory patterns. A more complete resource is Jerry Coker's Patterns for Jazz. The Coker book is bit more challenging. Unlike "A Daily Dose of Scales for Improvisation", most of the patterns aren't written out. They give you the patterns in C, and you figure out the rest of the keys. This forces you to work things out and play from memory, which is the goal with these patterns.
Mike _________________ Bach Stradivarius 43* Trumpet (1974), Bach 6C Mouthpiece.
Bach Stradivarius 184 Cornet (1988), Yamaha 13E4 Mouthpiece
Olds L-12 Flugelhorn (1969), Yamaha 13F4 Mouthpiece.
Plus a few other Bach, Getzen, Olds, Carol, HN White, and Besson horns. |
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jhatpro Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Mar 2002 Posts: 10204 Location: The Land Beyond O'Hare
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Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2022 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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What’s helped me is to play a lot out of the Charlie Parker Omnibook. I play the tunes first as ballads until I get the fingerings down and the sounds in my head.
Then I gradually increase the tempos a click or two at a time.
When I get so I can play them as written is when the fun starts. I see how much I can change them and still sound good.
An hour of this a day works wonders! _________________ Jim Hatfield
"The notes are there - find them.” Mingus
2021 Martinus Geelan Custom
2005 Bach 180-72R
1965 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1946 Conn Victor
1998 Scodwell flugel
1986 Bach 181 cornet
1954 Conn 80A cornet
2002 Getzen bugle |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9027 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2022 7:35 pm Post subject: |
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Jim, do use the Eb Alto book or the Bb trumpet transposition? _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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Jaw04 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 31 Dec 2015 Posts: 900 Location: Bay Area, California
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Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2022 8:26 pm Post subject: |
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It really depends on where you are at as a musician and as a trumpet player. You need to have both the technical ability to play fast and fluently on the trumpet, and the musical ability to think fast, understand chords, and "hear" on many levels. The 2 things usually go hand in hand as you develop by spending a lot of time listening to music at a high level and practicing with your horn.
Figure out what you are strong at and grow that seed.
Figure out what you are weak at and be honest with yourself in your practice. |
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Trumpjerele Veteran Member
Joined: 20 Feb 2019 Posts: 171 Location: Spain
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Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 1:47 am Post subject: |
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My improv teacher gave me the same advice as pat.
Foot tap only on beat one., so I can stay calm and not get lost in the changes.
At 240 rpm I can't drop many eighth notes in a row, so I try not to. Less is more. _________________ Notice!!! Amateur musician without formal studies
Trumpet: Yamaha 8310Z
Mouthpiece: the great Yamaha11b4
Sax tenor: Yamaha YTS 23
Mouthpiece: Otto link tone edge |
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joshlawrencejazz Regular Member
Joined: 18 Aug 2013 Posts: 26 Location: Interlochen
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Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2022 5:49 am Post subject: |
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PH wrote: |
One thing that might help is to think of the tempo in half time. In other words if the tune is a medium tempo swing at circa 120 beats a minute tap your foot on 1 & 3 (like cut time) and think of the tune as a ballad at 60bpm. This slows your thinking down & creates more of a focus on melodic playing. After this is comfortable, increase the tempo and continue to think in half time. Eventually, you will be thinking like you are playing 120bpm medium swing (and sometimes running double time lines) while the band is cruising along at 240bpm.
This really helped me. I first got the idea from talking to Hal Galper. He talks about it in his excellent book, "Forward Motion." |
This is good advice.
I would also add that working up your Clarke Technical Studies speeds and understanding their harmonic construction will free up your technique. Of course knowing how to play these tunes on piano helps this along even more. _________________ http://www.joshlawrencejazz.com/ |
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BeboppinFool Donald Reinhardt Forum Moderator
Joined: 28 Dec 2001 Posts: 6437 Location: AVL|NC|USA
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Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2022 2:42 pm Post subject: |
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Dayton wrote: | Check out Rich Willey's Improv Speed Builders. |
Use coupon code ImprovSpeedBuildersTH to download these five massive resources absolutely free!
Note, the website will ask for your information, but it won’t charge you a single penny.
This coupon expires one week from today (January 26, 2022) so “snooze you lose.”
The reason I’m doing this is because many people reported that they have passed on these volumes in favor of using iReal Pro, which is in fact, good, and I do use it. However, these digital downloads will simplify and speed up your set up time to get going plus these are twice as long as you can go in iReal Pro. Plus, I don’ know about you, but I play my mp3s through my big stereo and iReal Pro though my Bose Soundlink. (My stereo is far better.)
Anyway, go to boptism.com to look at these volumes. I don’t think a lot of trumpet players take the time to read the product description.
Consider this a gift of pure gratitude to TH for twenty years of support and encouragement! _________________ Puttin’ On The Ritz |
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TrumpetMD Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Oct 2008 Posts: 2415 Location: Maryland
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Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:07 pm Post subject: |
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BeboppinFool wrote: | Dayton wrote: | Check out Rich Willey's Improv Speed Builders. |
Use coupon code .... |
Thanks Rich.
Mike _________________ Bach Stradivarius 43* Trumpet (1974), Bach 6C Mouthpiece.
Bach Stradivarius 184 Cornet (1988), Yamaha 13E4 Mouthpiece
Olds L-12 Flugelhorn (1969), Yamaha 13F4 Mouthpiece.
Plus a few other Bach, Getzen, Olds, Carol, HN White, and Besson horns. |
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jhatpro Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Mar 2002 Posts: 10204 Location: The Land Beyond O'Hare
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Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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I use the Bb Charlie Parker Omnibook. _________________ Jim Hatfield
"The notes are there - find them.” Mingus
2021 Martinus Geelan Custom
2005 Bach 180-72R
1965 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1946 Conn Victor
1998 Scodwell flugel
1986 Bach 181 cornet
1954 Conn 80A cornet
2002 Getzen bugle |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9027 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2022 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks, Jim. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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Denny Schreffler Veteran Member
Joined: 14 Apr 2005 Posts: 390 Location: Tucson
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Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 12:23 am Post subject: |
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BeboppinFool wrote: | Dayton wrote: | Check out Rich Willey's Improv Speed Builders. |
Use coupon code ImprovSpeedBuildersTH to download these five massive resources absolutely free!
Consider this a gift of pure gratitude to TH for twenty years of support and encouragement! |
Only a Fool would give away $100 worth of books — Yes, five $20 books — to anyone on a huge list like TH.
Thanks for being our BeboppinFool, Rich!!!
—Denny |
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ECLtmpt2 Veteran Member
Joined: 21 Feb 2021 Posts: 147
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Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 8:35 am Post subject: |
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Thank You Rich!! |
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