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kehaulani
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 Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2022 10:51 am Post subject: Total Range vs. Double High C etc. |
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Well, I got to take a look at Total Range and can't see how it duplicated Double High C in 37 Weeks, which I've read is the likely reason it was removed from the market.
The book contains flexibility exercises that are pretty much universal. If anything, they can be found in Schlossberg but hardly not only there. Additionally, the introduction of pedal-note exercises is fair game for anyone who wants to use/write them.
IMO, the main distinction of Double High C, is that it's stated parallel with how meat cutters build their muscles and it's parallel to embouchure building. Especially the concept of playing sets of every-other-day playing. By contrast, the Total Range author specifically says to play the exercises every day.
I think Double High C's exercises are logical and fairly good exercises, put in a logical, orderly order. It's a fairly good set of exercises even for those who don't want to do the alternate days playing and exclusiveness of these exercises. It is not a balanced system like Claude Gordon, but it's not intended to be.
BTW, I think the little boxes everywhere telling you how much time each exercise takes with on the lips and off the lips is a little redundant. Metronome exercises are already given.
This is just personal, but if I'd rank similar exercise groups. I'd put Maggio first, then Double high C in 37 Weeks, and lastly, Total Range.
Any alternate takes on the book?
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JayKosta
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| Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2022 11:41 am Post subject: |
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Have you found any books that give helpful information or instruction about the body MECHANICS (embouchure, breathing, stance, etc.) of 'how to play' high range notes?
Specifically how to acquire / learn the 'knack' for producing high notes, or even a description of what body mechanics are involved with the technique.
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Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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kehaulani
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| Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2022 12:32 pm Post subject: |
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Not really, Jay. All of the major bools I know talk about such things, just with different approaches. If you mean micro-analyzing physical activities, perhaps the Stevens comes close, of what I've read.
I'm certainly open to learning more about it but your approach is not natural to me. I'm more in the camp of: point me in the direction of where I must go and my body will find a way to get me there, as opposed to defining what anatomical workings my body must first do to get me there and then do it. 
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JayKosta
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Joined: 24 Dec 2018
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Location: Endwell NY USA
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| Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2022 1:07 pm Post subject: |
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| kehaulani wrote: | Not really, Jay. All of the major bools I know talk about such things, just with different approaches. If you mean micro-analyzing physical activities, perhaps the Stevens comes close, of what I've read.
I'm certainly open to learning more about it but your approach is not natural to me. I'm more in the camp of: point me in the direction of where I must go and my body will find a way to get me there, as opposed to defining what anatomical workings my body must first do to get me there and then do it. :D |
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Thank you for replying - I think you are more familiar with the various 'different approaches' than I am.
Has any source been especially helpful in clarifying the 'direction of where I must go'?
I do believe having that understanding is critical for developing 'high notes'. If a player is on the wrong 'path', then exercise routines will not help unless they can guide to the right 'path'.
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Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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kehaulani
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| Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2022 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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I appreciate he confidence, Jay, but it may be misplaced, LOL. My approach to building range is simple, tongue like whistling, good air, good embouchure formation. The things like the buzz switching from one lip to the other, anchor tonguing, etc is a little out of my league.
I.E., when some are asked to describe breath support, they go into long and detailed interplay of the muscles, just how to support and where it comes from, etc. When I'm asked, I say, "Cough." "See?"
I think you would want more detailed info. My approach is probably influenced by my Martial Arts training: "Lead with your mind and the body will follow."
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JayKosta
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| Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2022 3:17 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks again, it's interesting to get a better understanding of how different people 'learn', and what they find successful for guidance in the process.
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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Denny Schreffler
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| Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2022 12:57 am Post subject: |
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| JayKosta wrote: | Have you found any books that give helpful information or instruction about the body MECHANICS (embouchure, breathing, stance, etc.) of 'how to play' high range notes?
Specifically how to acquire / learn the 'knack' for producing high notes, or even a description of what body mechanics are involved with the technique. |
Two sources that don’t get a lot of exposure, but worth sifting through and trying to digest are —
• EMBOUCHURE ENHANCEMENT BOOK 1 by Roddy Trumpet
• A Trumpet Legacy, Volume 1: Chops by Larry Meregillano
—Denny |
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Dayton
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| Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2022 6:37 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Well, I got to take a look at Total Range and can't see how it duplicated Double High C in 37 Weeks, which I've read is the likely reason it was removed from the market. |
The exercises in Total Range are almost entirely a subset of the exercises in 37 Weeks, and lessons are typically structured in the same order using those same exercises. For example, comparing Week 1 of the Intermediate Section of Total Range with Days 1 & 3 of 37 Weeks:
Total Range Exercise 1: Same as in 37 Weeks
Total Range Exercise 2: Same as in 37 Weeks
Total Range Exercise 3: Same as in 37 Weeks, but stops at pedal F (though in later sections of Total Range that exercise also goes lower into the pedals, matching 37 weeks)
Total Range Exercise 4: Same as exercise 5 from 37 Weeks
Total Range Exercise 5: Not in Days 1 & 3 of 37 Weeks, but the same exercise does appear later in 37 Weeks
Peters Exercise 6: Chromatic triplets as in 37 Weeks, but covers the range of a diminished fifth vice an octave
Peters Exercise 7: Same as exercise 6 from 37 Weeks, but continues higher in the harmonic series ( I believe the exercise is identical in the Basic Section of Total Range)
I mention that simply so that folks understand how similar the books are before they make a decision to buy either one. |
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kehaulani
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| Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2022 7:57 am Post subject: |
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Dayton, yes there is a lot of duplication, but do these exercises originate with Spalding or are they variations of the same, or similar, exercises found elsewhere, as well?
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Last edited by kehaulani on Tue Jan 04, 2022 8:51 am; edited 1 time in total |
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JayKosta
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| Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2022 8:33 am Post subject: |
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| Denny Schreffler wrote: |
Two sources that don’t get a lot of exposure, but worth sifting through and trying to digest are — ... |
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Denny, thanks for mentioning those books, I wasn't familiar with them.
Your wording (sifting through, and trying to digest) has got me thinking about the procedure that players use with such material.
I sort-of understand 'sifting through' (I call it 'looking for the good bits') because is seems that a lot of written material (and audio/video) has a lot of fluff, and it is difficult to locate the valuable kernels.
The 'trying to digest' is another obstacle, because the important topics and ideas (those kernels) seem to be difficult to explain, and understand.
Is that because the basics of the 'important stuff' is so simple that teachers and students don't believe it?
Or, that the basics are so complicated that they defy easy teaching / learning?
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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Dayton
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| Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2022 9:26 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Dayt0n, yes there is a lot of duplication, but do these exercises originate with Spalding or are they variations or the same as the same, or similar, exercises found elsewhere, as well? |
I believe Spaulding's book was published in 1963. You could look through Arban, Dauverne, Franquin, Gatti, St. Jacome, Williams and other methods that predate Spaulding to find chromatic and/or flexibility exercises. Schlossberg comes closer, but of course does not include pedal tones or the extreme upper register.
To the best of my knowledge, McBeth's Original Louis Maggio System, Gordon's Systematic Approach and Alessi's Technical Studies -- books with at least some similar content -- came after Spaulding. |
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kehaulani
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| Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2022 10:04 am Post subject: |
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Thanks, Dayton. I've been mainly influenced by Maggio and have done (partially) Gordon's exercises. And, of course, Schlossberg, so I thought there may have been an influence, there.
As an aside, I was part of a "control group" where we were introduced by Claude to his method while it was still in manuscript. Fun to see it in progress.
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Dayton
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| Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2022 10:51 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | As an aside, I was part of a "control group" where we were introduced by Claude to his method while it was still in manuscript. Fun to see it in progress. |
That's interesting. I'm curious as to the substantive changes from manuscript to published book. Systematic Approach is really useful, both conceptually and practically. I seem to recall CG student Bruce Haag mentioning years ago that there was a manuscript for Systematic Approach II. I hope that comes to light some day. Happy New Year! |
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kehaulani
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| Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2022 11:21 am Post subject: |
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Dayton, I was part of a group of trumpet players from North Texas who listened to Claude explain the particulars of his system, (and provide feedback), which are the same as you know them.
If there were changes between then and the published product, I wouldn't know. My attention was on my present teacher and Haynie's guidance, so didn't bother with Claude's after that. I had my hands full enough, as it was, LOL.
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trumpetjordy
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| Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:30 pm Post subject: |
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| JayKosta wrote: | Have you found any books that give helpful information or instruction about the body MECHANICS (embouchure, breathing, stance, etc.) of 'how to play' high range notes?
Specifically how to acquire / learn the 'knack' for producing high notes, or even a description of what body mechanics are involved with the technique. |
Hey Jay! lemme jump in here. It sounds like you're a smart player in search of a book that's perhaps a little more mechanically or pedagogically in-depth than the sources that've been out there for a while, that we all know etc. I might have something you'll appreciate~ Over the past year or so, I actually spent a good chunk of time putting a book together along the lines of exactly what you're asking about. It's all about embouchure mechanics, breathing, stance.. a book all about that 'knack' as you say and I've included many embouchure close ups with graphics (arrows, circles etc.) in an attempt to portray the details of the Ideal Embouchure as best as I can in 8 separate "events." You see, I believe that a trumpet player's range and sound are predetermined by the quality of his embouchure formation and Set before he plays. And I elaborate heavily on this statement in the book.
https://www.learnleadtrumpet.com/product/the-power-player-pdf/
The book (The Power Player PDF) outlines in great detail (88 pages) exactly how I'm mechanically/ physically able to play from low F# to above Triple C. I have quite a few students at this point who've also used my method to attain their Double C, a few have their party-trick trippa's I wrote the book (and recorded a parallel 5 hour video course) in 2021 because I've always felt that though there are some good range books out there as mentioned in this thread- none of them ever seem to directly tackle the physiological questions pertaining to the upper register. They mostly only contain written exercises for players who already have the ability to soar above the staff. My book aims to tackle the exact embouchure/ breathing/ tongue/ stance techniques etc. head on through discussion, pictures, and even video for those who want the video course.
Anyway, I think you would like my book. Here's the link. I'll even put it on sale for a couple of days for you guys. Best of luck on your search for the high-note 'knack' everyone!
https://www.learnleadtrumpet.com/product/the-power-player-pdf/
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Aj
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| Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2022 4:22 pm Post subject: |
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| JayKosta wrote: | Have you found any books that give helpful information or instruction about the body MECHANICS (embouchure, breathing, stance, etc.) of 'how to play' high range notes?
Specifically how to acquire / learn the 'knack' for producing high notes, or even a description of what body mechanics are involved with the technique. |
Try Malte Burba’s Brass Master Class book and video. Less well known but focuses on the mechanics and intelligent isometric excercises.
Secondly, you cannot go past Greg Spence’s Mystery to Mastery. He has tons of videos on youtube and I know personally how his ideas work. Especially if your embouchure is holding you back.
Ask yourself this.... is the person teaching you how to play high, a natural high note player? These people are helpful in many ways, but cannot solve the ‘mystery ‘ of good embouchure design and are often just reverse engineering.
All the best.
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Shaft
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| Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2022 7:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Denny Schreffler wrote: | | JayKosta wrote: | Have you found any books that give helpful information or instruction about the body MECHANICS (embouchure, breathing, stance, etc.) of 'how to play' high range notes?
Specifically how to acquire / learn the 'knack' for producing high notes, or even a description of what body mechanics are involved with the technique. |
Two sources that don’t get a lot of exposure, but worth sifting through and trying to digest are —
• EMBOUCHURE ENHANCEMENT BOOK 1 by Roddy Trumpet
• A Trumpet Legacy, Volume 1: Chops by Larry Meregillano
—Denny |
Really enjoyed Roddy-O’s book.
“Don’t squish the donut”
Seriously though lots of great stuff there to get one thinking about things in a good way. |
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bach_again
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| Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2022 7:02 am Post subject: |
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Consider this an opinion...
I don't think you can learn it (high register playing) from a book, personally, but being well versed in methods is no bad thing especially if you teach as it might help you diagnose certain things.
If you want to learn how to do it - book a lesson - in person - with Roger Ingram or Bryan Davis, and I would be suprised if you didn't find this more useful than any book or mouthpiece.
Like kehaulani says - I don't think I know of any accomplished players who got there thinking purely about mechanics. The body will find a way if you do the right exercises the right way and I strongly believe that you need to experience that sound in person to be able to do so - both to hear their performing sound, to hear the teacher performing the exercises. A massive lightbulb went off when I heard Roger - demonstrating exercises, how to play them, coaching me through them and then demonstrating music. I would say the same of Bryan Davis, hearing how perfect his sound was in person, and learning what and how he practised to get there. Neither of these people have their sound represented online in videos - and no player really does - because the video can't capture the feeling of experiencing it in person (they sound great in videos dont get me wrong, but it isn't the same at all). It is so much more perfect, beautiful and downright impressive in person.
Another transformative lesson for me was with Percy Pursglove - again, to hear his sound and facility was jaw dropping. I am applying what he taught me (Caruso and Maggio) with Bryan and Roger's exercises and with my Reinhardt instruction, and I had studied all of these things from books and got nowhere. Maybe this speaks to me more personally, but when I heard it in person, and knew what to expect (then diligently shedding it for years... still do) well things moved forward. I have had many lessons in my life, but a small % of them did anything for me, so I really do mean - seek these people out. You only risk a fee and wasted time at the worst, but you stand to gain a lot.
With all of these things. I invested complete faith in the lesson, in the exercises, and in all of them a constant "if you are doing these things right, it will work, stay the course" - and it does. I did obsessively shed the routines I was given - and with due diligence to the method of practice - and maybe that is a factor too.
good luck!
Mike
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kehaulani
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| Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2022 7:13 am Post subject: |
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@aj - "you cannot go past Greg Spence’s Mystery to Mastery. He has tons of videos on youtube and I know personally how his ideas work."
There are a ton of videos! What would you consider the top three? It's a little overwhelming. Thanks.
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Rapier232
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| Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2022 9:47 am Post subject: |
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| Denny Schreffler wrote: |
Two sources that don’t get a lot of exposure, but worth sifting through and trying to digest are —
• EMBOUCHURE ENHANCEMENT BOOK 1 by Roddy Trumpet
• A Trumpet Legacy, Volume 1: Chops by Larry Meregillano
—Denny |
The Compression Training System by Larry Meregillano. Is worth mentioning too. A device and system for working the embouchure muscles effectively and best of all silently, so can be used anytime anywhere.
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