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Why don’t more trumpets have a wide wrap?


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rickoak
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 2:12 pm    Post subject: Why don’t more trumpets have a wide wrap? Reply with quote

One of the many things I love about the X-13 is the wider wrap. The extra space for the left hand makes holding the horn more comfortable and I suspect that the shortening of the horn as a result helps lead to its very good balance. This got me wondering why more horns don’t have a wider wrap. With most things there are trade-offs but I’m not seeing any downside in this case.

Does anyone have an idea of why we don’t see more horns with a wider wrap?


Rick
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lipshurt
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Valve casings would have to be longer. I replaced the valve cluster in a 36b connstellation and the casings had to be .300 longer. So I made cap extensions, and also valve stem extensions. Worked real nice.

Wide wrap is something that changes the feel a lot compared to regular wrap. Wide feels bigger and it’s not subtle
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Divitt Trumpets
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My trumpets have a wider wrap for left hand comfort as well as freeing up the blow, but I don't have a longer valve casing. I do have to adjust the 2nd valve braces to leave room for fingers to undo the top caps.
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yourbrass
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2022 8:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Does anyone have an idea of why we don’t see more horns with a wider wrap?"

Because most makers have been copying Besson for so long they've forgotten why they started doing so in the first place!

BTW, totally agree w/you on the wide wrap, much more comfortable.
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rickoak
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2022 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was wondering if I was missing something, but your answer may be right. Until I played a horn with a wide wrap I didn't know what I was missing.

Rick
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Dale Proctor
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have an old Conn 6B Victor trumpet that has a wide wrap (same as the old Connstellation trumpets), but it’s actually LONGER than a standard trumpet because of the shape of the bell and leadpipe. Nice instrument, though.


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dstpt
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2022 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does anyone here know if CarolBrass makes a wide-wrap Bb trumpet?
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wayben
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2022 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, educate me please...what are some wide wrap trumpets?
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wayben
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2022 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Never mind, I found it.
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Jaw04
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2022 6:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Why don’t more trumpets have a wide wrap? Reply with quote

rickoak wrote:
One of the many things I love about the X-13 is the wider wrap. The extra space for the left hand makes holding the horn more comfortable and I suspect that the shortening of the horn as a result helps lead to its very good balance. This got me wondering why more horns don’t have a wider wrap. With most things there are trade-offs but I’m not seeing any downside in this case.

Does anyone have an idea of why we don’t see more horns with a wider wrap?


Rick
Hey man! I'm also in Oakland and play an X-13. Cheers.
As for your question why not more wide wraps? I think that a longer sleeker horn is probably more attractive, and comfortable for smaller hands. For me, I'm a bit taller than average and love the feel of the X-13 in my hands as well. I think for some smaller folks it might be a little too big.
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Notlem
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2022 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wayben wrote:
OK, educate me please...what are some wide wrap trumpets?


New trumpets with wide wraps that I am aware of:
Edwards x-13
Adams A6
Monette horns

I’m in agreement that more should be offering this, we need all the horn manufacturers to all add a “big and tall” or “king sized” selection!

-marc
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giakara
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 12:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My Lawler TL5-1A has a wide wrap and I realize that is because it has a Edwards valve block, I say that because last year I lost the 3 valve screw and the Getzen valve block screw didn't fit but the Edwards sctew is exactly the same.
For me the most comfortable grip in a wide wrap horn was a old Van Laar CF model with the old Bauerfeind valve block , it was like a soft pillow in my hands ...

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gregplo
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 4:41 am    Post subject: Re: Why don’t more trumpets have a wide wrap? Reply with quote

rickoak wrote:
One of the many things I love about the X-13 is the wider wrap. The extra space for the left hand makes holding the horn more comfortable and I suspect that the shortening of the horn as a result helps lead to its very good balance.
Rick


I also have an X-13 and love the wide wrap. I am tall, but do not have large hands, but still find it very comfortable to hold. I've had a Conn 38B Connstellation in the past, and loved the wide wrap on that horn as well.
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kevin_soda
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2022 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a Yamaha NY Bb and a Monette C trumpet. I, personally, don't really notice the difference in the wrap.
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Jack Andersson
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2022 4:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear trumpet fellows,
I would like to add a great open wrap trumpet built
by Peter Pollard in England!
He calls it The Big Easy"!It´s built to be heard
I can´t add a picture unfortenately.It´s not working for me!
The trumpet has a big 13mm bore,plays more open than my Wild Thing!
best wishes,
Jack
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2022 5:33 am    Post subject: Re: Why don’t more trumpets have a wide wrap? Reply with quote

rickoak wrote:
... Does anyone have an idea of why we don’t see more horns with a wider wrap? ...

-----------------------------------------
The 'air path' through the valve combinations needs to work, and that can affect the valve 'stroke length'.
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Subtropical and Subpar
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2022 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Notlem wrote:
wayben wrote:
OK, educate me please...what are some wide wrap trumpets?


New trumpets with wide wraps that I am aware of:
Edwards x-13
Adams A6
Monette horns

I’m in agreement that more should be offering this, we need all the horn manufacturers to all add a “big and tall” or “king sized” selection!

-marc


And in the very recent past, the Kanstul 990 and 991. (and in the more distant past obviously all the Conn wide wrap trumpets and long cornet - 6A, 6B, 8B, 10A, 10B, 12A, 12B, 28A, 38B, etc.)
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Manuel de los Campos
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2022 1:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Why don’t more trumpets have a wide wrap? Reply with quote

rickoak wrote:


Does anyone have an idea of why we don’t see more horns with a wider wrap?


Rick


Yes because why would you make a wide wrap trumpet anyway? My hands are really not that small and I found my former Buesscher True Tone Deluxe Aristocrat Custom Made peashooter very comfortable to hold; If the trumpet builder uses common sense by positioning the trow ring of the 3th slide right on the spot there is no need to build a bulky trumpet

http://www.buescherloyalist.com/Buescher%20235%20236%20custom%20built.html
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homebilly
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2022 12:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pollard link

https://pollardtrumpets.wordpress.com/2020/02/17/the-very-first-pollard-big-easy-number-1-back-in-the-pollard-workshops-after-over-30-years-%f0%9f%8e%ba/
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2022 6:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm going to hazard a guess based on some things I learned about the nature of the industry, at least from Zig Kanstul's point of view, and from simple observation of a valve section design.

Geometry: A valve piston design is centered around the valve stroke. How far the piston has to move. The diameter of the ports, the diameter of the piston, the necessary components that have to fit into the piston sleeve and the amount of bearing surface all influence the physical characteristics of the valve assembly. There also needs to be enough material left between ports to dissipate heat without deforming or cracking. These and other considerations need to come together in a way that fits comfortably in the hand. The resulting design needs to work well under the players hands for many years. Scratch that. It needs to work for many players for many years, or the product won't succeed in the marketplace. If a new wrap requires a new valve section, there better be sufficient demand for it, or it won't be produced.

Tooling: The most (or maybe second most) important and expensive thing to develop in making a trumpet or any other instrument is the tooling. Whether it's the wood block used to bend the bell bow or the heavy plates used to position the valve block pieces while soldering, the tooling is at the heart of every step. There has to be a solid reason to create a separate set of tools for a different wrap.

Labor: The more differences in the steps, the more mistakes can happen, the better the laborers need to be, the more expensive they become...

Storage: The more individual parts and assemblies there are, the more organization and space is needed to keep it all in line.

Development: Start from zero - again - to make sure it all works properly and plays well.

Market: Is there enough demand to support all the extra effort needed to produce this wide wrap model?

The brass industry moves at a glacial pace, these days. Even changing finishes takes a major investment that might not pay off. Something as small as the color of the material that makes up those top cap pads under the finger buttons on a Bach or Kanstul Signature valve can reverberate with suspicion in the marketplace. I've seen it happen. With a shrinking market, it's becoming very rare indeed that a major manufacturer will take the plunge and create something truly new.

That's what makes the likes of the X-13 special, indeed.
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