Kanstul Besson vs. 70's Courtois Flugelhorn

[westerner]

I'm looking for an excellent flugelhorn. I don't want to spend a premium for a new horn or for an exotic custom, but otherwise, I'd like to get something good.

I'm going for a traditional small-bore horn. Two horns that I see multiple examples of available are the Kanstul Besson Brevete or Kanstul 925 (only the water keys and leadpipe vary), and the Courtois - particularly the Courtois made between the late 50's and early 80's.

Price seems to depend on the particular horn's condition. With a good finish and only a few small dings, asking prices are around $1300. Some horns with blemishes, finish wear or dents might go for as little as half that, but I would be trying to get one in the best condition available.

I guess you could say my budget is around $1300, but only because I believe I can get a good-enough horn for that much. I could spend twice as much, but I'm not sure it would better meet any of my needs

So I understand the Kanstul-made horns, whether Besson brand for Boosey-Hawkes or the Kanstul-branded horns have straight-through valve clusters like the current-model Courtois (AC-15x).

The older Courtois I'm looking at have the traditional valve clusters where the lead pipe staggers through the valves.

I don't know a lot about Flugelhorns, but I understand the supposed origin to be related to the bugles of 18th century German ducal hunt leaders. On the other hand, the three-valved flugelhorn might have been made most popular for music, jazz in particular, in France during the middle of the 20th century. The horns made by Couesnon were popular because they were available and affordable but often poorly made and now often patched and resoldered if not pretty banged up. I believe the Courtois to be a better-made alternative for a traditional French flugelhorn, and the Kanstuls to be a little more recent with a slightly updated design along the same theme. I don't care about authentic French origin. I play in California anyway.

I don't play jazz in particular, and I don't need any particular sound. I play solo so I'm just looking for good-sounding alternative to my trumpet.

Is there a reason I should prefer the older Courtois to the Kanstul horns or vice versa?

[etc-etc]

Consider also Yamaha 631 / 631G (similar to Courtois) and Yamaha Bobby Shew 6310Z (similar to Couesnon owned by Bobby Shew). Both of these flugels are bottom-sprung.

The 6310Z sounds a little lighter and perhaps more elegant, but needs meticulous valve maintenance. Maintained well, the 6310Z valves will be fast and silky smooth; without maintenance, they will be slow and scratchy, and may even seize.

Unfortunately, the 6310Z bottom casings are shallowly cut and prone to cross-threading. As a result, on 6310Z it is tricky to attach the bottom caps, particularly if one is in a rush.

In comparison, the valves of 631 feel a little heavier and slower, but need much less maintenance. The 631 casings and bottom caps are very nicely threaded with no issues when putting the caps back on.

I think the going price for 631G is around $1000 used.

[Brassnose]

I have never played Courtois but I always found I didn’t like the Kanstul valves. I can’t really put why this is, they always seemed „rougher“ than comparable Bach or other valves. Maybe a little noisier, not slower. There is just something about them that makes me not want a Kanstul horn.

The Yamaha is certainly an option, as are B&S horns. I know the latter are not liked by some on here but they produce good quality horns with good playability and sound (at reasonable prices, too).

Also Carol Brass may be worthwile, I have always found their sound to be on the lighter side, and great valves. Plus CB is one of the few companies that places the trigger at the right place (for me, that is - I dislike those mega-short trigger levers that are mounted way up and prefer triggers with long levers that are mounted as low as possible).
_________________
2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier

[etc-etc]

As much as I like Yamaha 6310Z and 631G, you are right about their 3rd slide trigger - it is awfully unergonomic. Once upon a time, I tried to get the 8310Z / 8310G trigger which is shaped much longer and nicer. Alas, it was only sold at a price of a complete set with the 3rd slide and arm (except, it was sold without either the slide or the arm).

[Halflip]