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Incoming New Horn Search, focus on third valve and grip


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butxifxnot
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
I don't follow the cosmetics very closely, so I have a question. Do you folks mean that if a finer ring is moved and leaves a mark, that the mark can't be touched up and relacquered?

No, it absolutely can. But from what I've read from repair techs, every time you lacquer or re-plate your horn, since the technician needs to remove any existing lacquer/plating on and around that spot, that spot gets permanent wear. It's miniscule wear, some may argue even insignificant, to the point of being anal. But it's not a 'free' customization to the wear on your horn.

Additionally, it's an extra procedure above and beyond moving the ring/saddle.
Maybe a tech will do it as part of the move, but as far as I know they're within their rights to charge additional for it. And if it was a plated horn, I would want a metal-plating company to do that part.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, butxifxnot.
If it was me, it'd be no big deal. Anal's a humorous describer. But, hey, it's not my horn.
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HaveTrumpetWillTravel
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Moving the 3rd ring or installing an adjustable ring is still a pretty low-impact repair. If you're on something standard like a Bach 37, you can always just buy a new 3rd valve slide if you really want to. If your current Bach is mostly a junker, I'd maybe try it out on that one. I'd imagine moving is a ring is a pretty cheap repair (unsolder and resolder one item). You may find you still hate using a ring at all, and would rather just have a trigger on your next horn, but at least you'd have exhausted the alternatives.
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nieuwguyski
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

With no intention of casting shade at your trusted repair tech, I'd suggest getting a second opinion on the internal red rot in the bell crook. I will say no more on that subject.

Since it sounds like you're planning on getting rid of your current Bach no matter what, why not use it as a test chassis for every suggestion given?

Sure, you'd be paying for lots of modifications on your current horn, but it's the horn you know -- which means you know its fundamental characteristics and could also have an idea if triggers (for example) changed things beyond just ergonomics.

Have a ring put on the first slide. Move the ring on the third slide. Have an adjustable ring put on the third slide. Go for double triggers.

Figure out what you want on the horn you're planning on getting rid of anyway and use that knowledge to order the horn you plan on keeping.

butxifxnot wrote:
nieuwguyski wrote:
That's a really unusual location for red rot. Could you post pictures?

I cannot, it's on the interior. I was informed of the rot some time ago by a respected repairman in the area. It's possible he was giving me salesman-speak to try to get me in buying mood on future horn purchases, but in general I don't think reputed repairmen will outright lie to sell to you.

That plus some of the other issues I have with the horn which would require sinking more customization $$$ to solve (tuning issues with 1st and 3rd valves: short story: I've had a private instructor years back who had me do a fantastic exercise where I mapped how well my horn is in tune on every single note, and he pointed out that every single note involving 3rd valve is flat, and I should consider having it shortened. It's partially because of this I've had to compensate by generally tuning sharp and leaning into the slot of most notes to tune them down. You didn't ask for that detail but I figured I'd share, :D sorry)

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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nieuwguyski wrote:
Go for double triggers.

@nieuwguyski, I had read right here that triggers messed with a horn's accoustic. no?
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Brassnose
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@ kehaulani: regarding your question on relaquering/touching up places where the ring has been moved: it looks like it’s even possible re-plate such spots w/o the need to redo the whole horn. https://www.petersik-instruments.com/post/repair-with-new-silver-plating?lang=en I just realized that the English version does not say it properly - the German version of the post specifically states that only those places that need replating are replated.

Also on triggers (again): been playing for 40 years and never liked the rings. I’m on the way to get triggers where I really need them. With Bach slides in particular this is not an issue because you can still remove the dump slide and clean the horn. Also, modern triggers have snap-off heads that one simply unclicks to remove the slide and then clicks back together. Easy.

To be honest, one thing that really puzzles me is why Getzen, Schilke, Carol, and B&S still have those screw-on linkages that really are a mess to take apart, even on flugelhorn with its more oven wrap.
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butxifxnot
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nieuwguyski wrote:
With no intention of casting shade at your trusted repair tech, I'd suggest getting a second opinion on the internal red rot in the bell crook. I will say no more on that subject.

Since it sounds like you're planning on getting rid of your current Bach no matter what, why not use it as a test chassis for every suggestion given?

Sure, you'd be paying for lots of modifications on your current horn, but it's the horn you know -- which means you know its fundamental characteristics and could also have an idea if triggers (for example) changed things beyond just ergonomics.

Have a ring put on the first slide. Move the ring on the third slide. Have an adjustable ring put on the third slide. Go for double triggers.

Figure out what you want on the horn you're planning on getting rid of anyway and use that knowledge to order the horn you plan on keeping.

butxifxnot wrote:
nieuwguyski wrote:
That's a really unusual location for red rot. Could you post pictures?

I cannot, it's on the interior. I was informed of the rot some time ago by a respected repairman in the area. It's possible he was giving me salesman-speak to try to get me in buying mood on future horn purchases, but in general I don't think reputed repairmen will outright lie to sell to you.

That plus some of the other issues I have with the horn which would require sinking more customization $$$ to solve (tuning issues with 1st and 3rd valves: short story: I've had a private instructor years back who had me do a fantastic exercise where I mapped how well my horn is in tune on every single note, and he pointed out that every single note involving 3rd valve is flat, and I should consider having it shortened. It's partially because of this I've had to compensate by generally tuning sharp and leaning into the slot of most notes to tune them down. You didn't ask for that detail but I figured I'd share, sorry)


It's a good point and deserves to be said. This person is well respected in my former local community (San Antonio musicians), and he does do excellent work, but he has used some questionable tactics to sell horns that I've directly observed. That made me lose quite a bit of respect for him. I should have thought of getting a second opinion back then, but hindsight is 20/20. I'll chew on that idea: I've invested a lot in this horn so it's worthwhile.

However, it has severe tuning issues other than what I've mentioned in this thread (the 3rd valve combos all being flat). Even if he's incorrect about the rot, I'm still looking at continued radical customizations to correct the tuning issues that were either pre-existing or that I've introduced with my previous customizations. I feel like I've dug the hole deeper than I should and it being a I think 30ish year old basic Bach Strad, it's time for a fresh horn that is my fit from the getgo.

That said, sounds like an expensive prospect though to use this horn as a guinea pig. I'm pretty sure I can gain the information I need by sampling different horns and different configurations at TMEA. Maybe I'm being overly optimistic?
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nieuwguyski
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2022 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
nieuwguyski wrote:
Go for double triggers.

@nieuwguyski, I had read right here that triggers messed with a horn's accoustic. no?


If you mean this particular thread, I just quickly scanned through every post and no, I don't think you read that.

If you mean on this forum in general then sure, I'm sure there are any number of posts about the evil of triggers and the evil they do. There are also any number of posts about the fundamental superiority of double triggers, particularly from the brass-band cornet players. If you choose to tilt at that windmill there's your target, and I won't volunteer to be your Sancho Panza.

I personally have had triggers added to trumpets, cornets, and flugelhorns and have never found the acoustic messed with. But maybe that's just me.
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nieuwguyski
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2022 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

butxifxnot wrote:
I've invested a lot in this horn so it's worthwhile.

However, it has severe tuning issues other than what I've mentioned in this thread (the 3rd valve combos all being flat). Even if he's incorrect about the rot, I'm still looking at continued radical customizations to correct the tuning issues that were either pre-existing or that I've introduced with my previous customizations.


If every single third-valve combo is flat, including low C#, the third-valve slide is simply too long. Having a slide trimmed shorter isn't that radical, and since Bach Strad Bb's have a dump slide the modification can probably be made in such a way that replacing the third slide will undo the modifications.

I will bow out now. By all means, try as many new trumpets as you can and I truly hope you'll find the solution to your problem.
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butxifxnot
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nieuwguyski wrote:
butxifxnot wrote:
I've invested a lot in this horn so it's worthwhile.

However, it has severe tuning issues other than what I've mentioned in this thread (the 3rd valve combos all being flat). Even if he's incorrect about the rot, I'm still looking at continued radical customizations to correct the tuning issues that were either pre-existing or that I've introduced with my previous customizations.


If every single third-valve combo is flat, including low C#, the third-valve slide is simply too long. Having a slide trimmed shorter isn't that radical, and since Bach Strad Bb's have a dump slide the modification can probably be made in such a way that replacing the third slide will undo the modifications.

I will bow out now. By all means, try as many new trumpets as you can and I truly hope you'll find the solution to your problem.


Trimming down the length of the third valve slide is what a former PI of mine suggested years back, warning that it's a permanent change and may not be worth it, since you can't undo it if it screws up the horn.

But anyway, I appreciate the input! I think I'm going to get someone to look at the horn and confirm the red rot to reevaluate if this horn can still give some in-tune value.
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