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lipshurt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Feb 2008 Posts: 2642 Location: vista ca
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Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2022 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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If it shuts down when you are tired it’s one or two of three possible things:
1) the “alpha angle” is to “high” meaning the cup slants down from the inner edge as opposed dropping straight down from the inner edge. And your lips need room when they swell up, and that cup shape does not have enough room right under the rim
2) the opposite. The alpha angle is too “low” and your lips do not need room right below the rim. They need “support” and a high alpha angle would be better
3) the diameter is too big.
Other things like rim contour cup depth throat size backbore etc do different things if they are not right, but what you describe is one of those first three things.
I realize that there may a person out there with experiences contrary to what I’m saying. What I’m saying goes for the other 99 percent of players. _________________ Mouthpiece Maker
vintage Trumpet design enthusiast
www.meeuwsenmouthpieces.com
www.youtube.com/lipshurt |
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chef8489 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Aug 2011 Posts: 857 Location: Johnson City Tn
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Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:18 pm Post subject: |
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double high t"]If it shuts down when you are tired it’s one or two of three possible things:
1) the “alpha angle” is to “high” meaning the cup slants down from the inner edge as opposed dropping straight down from the inner edge. And your lips need room when they swell up, and that cup shape does not have enough room right under the rim
2) the opposite. The alpha angle is too “low” and your lips do not need room right below the rim. They need “support” and a high alpha angle would be better
3) the diameter is too big.
Other things like rim contour cup depth throat size backbore etc do different things if they are not right, but what you describe is one of those first three things.
I realize that there may a person out there with experiences contrary to what I’m saying. What I’m saying goes for the other 99 percent of players.[/quote]
Except it happens with all four of the lotus pieces I have. They range in size from 1.25c to 3c. 1L, 2xl,2Xl2, 2L
I usually play on a 1.5c and 1.5b bach and have a curry 2bbc for cornet. My range is up to e above double high c. So when I can't even play 2 octaves with a mouthpiece brand and I switch it out and then I can something is going on. _________________ Current horns
2023 Bach 19072G/43 pipe with 1st trigger
1966 H.N. White King Silver Flair
1965 H.N. White King Super 20 Sllversonic Symphony 1st trigger |
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ThatFoxtrot Regular Member
Joined: 06 Jul 2021 Posts: 22 Location: Australia
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Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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lipshurt wrote: | If it shuts down when you are tired it’s one or two of three possible things:
1) the “alpha angle” is to “high” meaning the cup slants down from the inner edge as opposed dropping straight down from the inner edge. And your lips need room when they swell up, and that cup shape does not have enough room right under the rim
2) the opposite. The alpha angle is too “low” and your lips do not need room right below the rim. They need “support” and a high alpha angle would be better
3) the diameter is too big.
Other things like rim contour cup depth throat size backbore etc do different things if they are not right, but what you describe is one of those first three things.
I realize that there may a person out there with experiences contrary to what I’m saying. What I’m saying goes for the other 99 percent of players. |
I suspect it is number 1 for me, I am used to playing on a Yamaha Thomas Hooten Mouthpiece which has a comparatively very sharp bite on the inner rim compared to what seems to be a rather smooth bite on the 1L.
Has anyone played the 1XL/1XL2 and the 1L? I would like to know if the deeper cups have a sharper bite at all and would be worth giving a shot. _________________ Bb- Schagerl James Morrison Meister Trumpet
C- Schagerl Charis
D- Yamaha 651 |
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Jaw04 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 31 Dec 2015 Posts: 899 Location: California
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Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2022 8:29 pm Post subject: |
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I suspect problems tiring with the Lotus mouthpieces has to do with the more open throat and backbore, which does not respond well to overblowing and muscling the way you might be used to playing with more conventional pieces as you fatigue. Just my thoughts. I think the rims and cups are pretty conventional. |
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chef8489 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Aug 2011 Posts: 857 Location: Johnson City Tn
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Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2022 8:40 pm Post subject: |
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1.5c I have on my trumpets as I sold all my other trumpet mouthpieces. to do with the more open throat and backbore, which does not respond well to overblowing and muscling the way you might be used to playing with more conventional pieces as you fatigue. Just my thoughts. I think the rims and cups are pretty conventional.[/quote]
Very well could ben when I play c and lower when fatigued I am still really relaxed. I'll play tomorrow and see how it goes. I'll use all 4 mouthpieces and see what happens when I'm tired then use my cornet with the 2bbc and use the ckb 1.5c I have on my trumpets as I sold all my other trumpet mouthpieces. _________________ Current horns
2023 Bach 19072G/43 pipe with 1st trigger
1966 H.N. White King Silver Flair
1965 H.N. White King Super 20 Sllversonic Symphony 1st trigger |
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ThatFoxtrot Regular Member
Joined: 06 Jul 2021 Posts: 22 Location: Australia
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Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2022 8:46 pm Post subject: |
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Jaw04 wrote: | I suspect problems tiring with the Lotus mouthpieces has to do with the more open throat and backbore, which does not respond well to overblowing and muscling the way you might be used to playing with more conventional pieces as you fatigue. Just my thoughts. I think the rims and cups are pretty conventional. |
I actually found that the Lotus Mouthpieces offered more resistance than my Hooten Mouthpiece for example. _________________ Bb- Schagerl James Morrison Meister Trumpet
C- Schagerl Charis
D- Yamaha 651 |
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Trumpetingbynurture Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Nov 2015 Posts: 898
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Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2022 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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Who has tried the XL and XL2 cups?
Particularly love thoughts from those using them on C trumpet |
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chef8489 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Aug 2011 Posts: 857 Location: Johnson City Tn
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Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2022 4:18 pm Post subject: |
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Trumpetingbynurture wrote: | Who has tried the XL and XL2 cups?
Particularly love thoughts from those using them on C trumpet |
I'm currently running a 2xl in bronze and a 1l2 but they are on my Bb horns. _________________ Current horns
2023 Bach 19072G/43 pipe with 1st trigger
1966 H.N. White King Silver Flair
1965 H.N. White King Super 20 Sllversonic Symphony 1st trigger |
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claf Regular Member
Joined: 01 Oct 2017 Posts: 48
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Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2022 1:39 am Post subject: |
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I'm using a 3M and 3XL2 (bronze) on my C.
The 3XL2 allows me to have a great sound without losing any notes in the high register.
However, since I'm more accustomed to shallow mouthpieces, I'm always ending up using the 3M, otherwise I'm tiring too quickly since I'm mostly playing 1st parts with some pops tunes.
But i'm still practicing the 3XL2 to use it at some point. _________________ Bb: Schagerl James Morrison, Van Laar B7, XO 1600i
C: Bach Philadelphia |
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Trumpetingbynurture Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Nov 2015 Posts: 898
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Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2022 3:58 am Post subject: |
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claf wrote: | I'm using a 3M and 3XL2 (bronze) on my C.
The 3XL2 allows me to have a great sound without losing any notes in the high register.
However, since I'm more accustomed to shallow mouthpieces, I'm always ending up using the 3M, otherwise I'm tiring too quickly since I'm mostly playing 1st parts with some pops tunes.
But i'm still practicing the 3XL2 to use it at some point. |
How's that 3M sounding on your C Trumpet? I assumed it would be too bright but maybe not! |
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acritzer Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Nov 2009 Posts: 827 Location: Cincinnati, OH
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Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2022 4:14 am Post subject: |
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I'm tempted to try a 3XL2 B, but probably wouldn't have that many opportunities to actually use it since most of my playing is single or small instrument settings.
On a side note, I'm amazed how different my 3LB and 3L are from each other. |
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Trumpetingbynurture Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Nov 2015 Posts: 898
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Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2022 5:45 am Post subject: |
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acritzer wrote: | I'm tempted to try a 3XL2 B, but probably wouldn't have that many opportunities to actually use it since most of my playing is single or small instrument settings.
On a side note, I'm amazed how different my 3LB and 3L are from each other. |
I assume.the B is for bronze? Different in what ways? |
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claf Regular Member
Joined: 01 Oct 2017 Posts: 48
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Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2022 5:58 am Post subject: |
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Trumpetingbynurture wrote: | claf wrote: | I'm using a 3M and 3XL2 (bronze) on my C.
The 3XL2 allows me to have a great sound without losing any notes in the high register.
However, since I'm more accustomed to shallow mouthpieces, I'm always ending up using the 3M, otherwise I'm tiring too quickly since I'm mostly playing 1st parts with some pops tunes.
But i'm still practicing the 3XL2 to use it at some point. |
How's that 3M sounding on your C Trumpet? I assumed it would be too bright but maybe not! |
Sounds beautiful!
Yes, it's a little bright, but it still is a medium-depth cup with a huge throat.
I'm trying to play the 3XL2 to get a darker tone, but since I perform easier or medium-shallow cups, it's easier for me to darken it a bit.
And I guess it's also part of my sound to be a little bright! _________________ Bb: Schagerl James Morrison, Van Laar B7, XO 1600i
C: Bach Philadelphia |
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acritzer Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Nov 2009 Posts: 827 Location: Cincinnati, OH
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Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2022 6:04 am Post subject: |
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Trumpetingbynurture wrote: | acritzer wrote: | I'm tempted to try a 3XL2 B, but probably wouldn't have that many opportunities to actually use it since most of my playing is single or small instrument settings.
On a side note, I'm amazed how different my 3LB and 3L are from each other. |
I assume.the B is for bronze? Different in what ways? |
Correct, B for Bronze. Different in the tone colors that are most pronounced.
The brass piece has more highs that seem to come through and seems to be more up front. The bronze is warmer/rounder and maybe a bit more subdued? I mean these are all misc adjectives so it's hard to describe. Each piece can achieve similar results if desired, but each one automatically defaults to a different profile.
And I think, because each one produces a different sound profile I sometimes (incorrectly) adjust my playing. That's something I need to work on, letting each mouthpiece do what it does best and using them in the appropriate setting. For example, if I were playing in a traditional band/group setting I'd probably use the brass. If were playing with a choir/organ/church setting I'd probably use the bronze.
Hope that helps. |
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improver Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Mar 2004 Posts: 1455
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Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2022 3:28 am Post subject: |
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I just recently bought a Lotus 3L in brass and love it with my committee. I ordered it off their site and it came a week later. I got interested after attending Chris Botti's concert a gift as per Chris thru our mutual friend Gabe Johnson on my wife's bday, and him using one and talking to him about it after the concert and listening to our mutual friend Gabe Johnson play on it. I'm a Bach guy but I must say the Lotus pieces are good. Chris sounded great on it and just received one of their horns which he is considering playing , although he has that 39 Martin he loves. |
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improver Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Mar 2004 Posts: 1455
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Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2022 4:41 am Post subject: |
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I understand the Lotus mpcs are being made in Italy. On my new one the bottom reminds me a lot of the lighter AR bottoms. I wonder if AR is making them. |
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acritzer Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Nov 2009 Posts: 827 Location: Cincinnati, OH
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Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2022 4:47 am Post subject: |
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improver wrote: | I understand the Lotus mpcs are being made in Italy. On my new one the bottom reminds me a lot of the lighter AR bottoms. I wonder if AR is making them. |
I don't think they're being made by AR, especially with the rocky roll out they had, some quality control issues and such. But I do think some of the design features are similar. I also think that's the case when you look at the horns. Both use different materials (bronze, nickel silver) to achieve different results, both use similar tuning slide shapes, etc. |
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Goby Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Jun 2017 Posts: 648
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Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2022 4:49 am Post subject: |
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AR doesn’t make Lotus pieces. The relationship between those 2 companies has been documented on this forum, but the long story short is that Adam initially endorsed AR trumpets and mouthpieces, then went behind AR’s back to have the pieces duplicated and produced under his own name. If your piece feels similar to an AR, it’s probably because it’s a copy with some minor variation (if any). |
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acritzer Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Nov 2009 Posts: 827 Location: Cincinnati, OH
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Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2022 4:53 am Post subject: |
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Goby wrote: | AR doesn’t make Lotus pieces. The relationship between those 2 companies has been documented on this forum, but the long story short is that Adam initially endorsed AR trumpets and mouthpieces, then went behind AR’s back to have the pieces duplicated and produced under his own name. If your piece feels similar to an AR, it’s probably because it’s a copy with some minor variation (if any). |
Interesting. I haven't seen anytime Adam used AR. Was this after he used Monette? |
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Goby Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Jun 2017 Posts: 648
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Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2022 5:19 am Post subject: |
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acritzer wrote: |
Interesting. I haven't seen anytime Adam used AR. Was this after he used Monette? |
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CNgRoSvTpE
Check out the mouthpiece (4:24 is a good closeup): brushed gold and it screws into the receiver. The video predates the Lotus company as well. It's an early AR trumpet. |
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