• FAQ  • Search  • Memberlist  • Usergroups   • Register   • Profile  • Log in to check your private messages  • Log in 

Remembering How to Play in the Upper Range


Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> High Range Development
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
INTJ
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 25 Dec 2002
Posts: 1973
Location: Northern Idaho

PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2021 2:08 pm    Post subject: Remembering How to Play in the Upper Range Reply with quote

I have just gone through a mini-comeback of sorts and I am remembering some good stuff about playing.

In Dec 2019 I lost my job, then the covid shutdowns happened. The big band I was in stopped rehearsing and performing. For most of 2020 I kept up with lessons, though my practice time started shortening. After we sold our house and moved in Dec 2020 - Jan 2021, I pretty much stopped playing completely. I would occasionally get out the horn to play, but it wasn't until about a month ago that I was able to start playing in a band again and jumped back in.

Obviously, nine months of very minimal playing plus a year of less and less practice had some consequences. When I started seriously playing again my accuracy was bad, endurance sucked, and extreme upper range was iffy. That was to be expected. However, I have found remembering how I solved those issues and applying them has been very useful.

Back in the Fall of 2019 I started using Bob Odneal's approach to the upper range, Casual Double High C. I would basically start my warmup with his approach and then work on my other stuff. When I started playing again in October I kept that approach.

The specific things I have had to remember are:

1. Wedge breath

2. Anchor tonguing (or modified K tongue)

3. Remembering the High G tongue position feel and the subtle extension to get up to DHC/DHD

4. Thinking "less volume"

Now I do not presume that how I think about this is right for anyone else. But the exercise of remembering this things has solidified them in my mind and the results are showing up in my playing. My High Gs are stronger than they have ever been and the notes above are settling back in nicely. My endurance is improving and I think it's better now than it has ever been. Accuracy is almost back.

Now I still have a crap-ton of deficiencies in my playing. I suck at improv, my reading is mediocre, and I have to work up most my parts to sound good. I currently share the lead book with another player, and I find parts other than lead to be just as hard or even harder for me to work up. After all, I have played a lot of lead over the years and when your upper range is decent and you play with proper style and in time, lead is easy. It's often the melody and doesn't jump around in weird ways like the other parts--which also need to be played in the proper style and in time.

Something else I have realized. I don't really work on my upper range. It's just that every exercise I play goes to the top of my range. Maybe that is an important key that I have been missing. If I can't play accurately, in time, in tune, and with style in my upper range; then I wont have a useful upper range.
_________________
Flip Oakes Inspiration
Wild Thing
Wedge MPs


Last edited by INTJ on Sat Nov 06, 2021 5:09 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Richard III
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 22 May 2007
Posts: 2324
Location: Anacortes, WA

PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2021 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Title just begs the response. I used to play high in the 70's. A lot. Okay now back to your normal programming.
_________________
Richard

1935 Conn 64I Baritone
King 1130 Flugabone
King 2280 Euphonium
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
INTJ
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 25 Dec 2002
Posts: 1973
Location: Northern Idaho

PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2021 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Richard III wrote:
Title just begs the response. I used to play high in the 70's. A lot. Okay now back to your normal programming.


Title has been corrected. I was never impressed with anyone who used recreational drugs, even in the 70s........
_________________
Flip Oakes Inspiration
Wild Thing
Wedge MPs
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
INTJ
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 25 Dec 2002
Posts: 1973
Location: Northern Idaho

PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 2021 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to add one more:

Bite the high notes.

Raising the tongue isn't the only way to reduce the volume in our mouth. When I think "bite" it means less effort with an arched tongue.....

Also, after spending a few minutes working up a high lick, I need to take the horn off my face and rest for a few minutes.....
_________________
Flip Oakes Inspiration
Wild Thing
Wedge MPs
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
SteveDurand
Regular Member


Joined: 28 Dec 2015
Posts: 80
Location: Orange County, California

PostPosted: Sat Nov 13, 2021 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that this is a good reminder that playing in the high register is more about technique than about strength.

Steve
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kehaulani
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 23 Mar 2003
Posts: 6500
Location: Hawai`i - Texas

PostPosted: Sat Nov 13, 2021 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry for your predicaments. It must be tough and I wish you the best. It must be tough.

I have a Schlossberg regime that was circulated in the past among West Coast players for folks who had long lay-offs or injuries. I sure found it helpful as did the folks using it who passed it to me.

I can't post it here, only send it to you email, which you don't post. If you want it contact me PM. If not, no problem.
_________________
"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Charlie Parker
"Even if I could play like Wynton Marsalis, I wouldn't play like Wynton Marsalis." Attributed to Chet

Yamaha 8310Z
Benge 3X LA
Adams F-1 Flugelhorn
Weibster Cornet
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
INTJ
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 25 Dec 2002
Posts: 1973
Location: Northern Idaho

PostPosted: Sat Nov 13, 2021 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
Sorry for your predicaments. It must be tough and I wish you the best. It must be tough.

I have a Schlossberg regime that was circulated in the past among West Coast players for folks who had long lay-offs or injuries. I sure found it helpful as did the folks using it who passed it to me.

I can't post it here, only send it to you email, which you don't post. If you want it contact me PM. If not, no problem.


Actually it's going quite well. It's now been a month and I am 95% back. I have been remembering what works. My biggest frustration is "shelfing" which I had resolved before my break.
_________________
Flip Oakes Inspiration
Wild Thing
Wedge MPs
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Lionel
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 25 Jul 2016
Posts: 783

PostPosted: Sun Nov 14, 2021 9:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds like the O/P is going through a classic case of overtraining. However he ought to first examine his physics. Physics of embouchure that is.

Does he play correctly? Because most trumpet players don't. The correct embouchure is explained and laid out in the second edition of the Stevens-Costello Triple C Embouchure Technique. So check that book out as it says much more than I can. If you don't think that this is the correct way to play? Or if your teacher tells you it's wrong?

Ask your teacher to play a Ga above Double C. If he can't? Then he too is playing incorrectly. A properly formed embouchure can play Double C fairly easily. While a beginner probably be won't have much accuracy he'll still play this note.

But if he doesn't change his physics because he's satisfied with a limited embouchure and range? Hey it happens. Okay then by the very nature of having a range limitation or ceiling in register consider this,

Use every other physical advantage that you can find to help compensate for your deficient embouchure.

Use as shallow of a mouthpiece as you can. Have a professional Craftsman bore out the throat & back bore combination to negate most of the tinny quality. As time goes by and you get used to the much shallower piece? Switch to one even shallower! I'm not kidding. As it can take months to finally find the right groove in your shallowest piece.

Or if using a larger mouthpiece helps? Sure, then do that instead. Just keep open minded and avoid overtraining your chops. As this condition tends to cause depression in a brass player.
_________________
"Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!

Carl Spackler (aka Bill Murray, 1980).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kehaulani
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 23 Mar 2003
Posts: 6500
Location: Hawai`i - Texas

PostPosted: Sun Nov 14, 2021 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You have incredible range. Did you use the Stevens' technique to achieve it?
_________________
"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Charlie Parker
"Even if I could play like Wynton Marsalis, I wouldn't play like Wynton Marsalis." Attributed to Chet

Yamaha 8310Z
Benge 3X LA
Adams F-1 Flugelhorn
Weibster Cornet


Last edited by kehaulani on Sun Nov 14, 2021 10:19 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
INTJ
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 25 Dec 2002
Posts: 1973
Location: Northern Idaho

PostPosted: Sun Nov 14, 2021 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lionel wrote:
Sounds like the O/P is going through a classic case of overtraining. However he ought to first examine his physics. Physics of embouchure that is.

Does he play correctly? Because most trumpet players don't. The correct embouchure is explained and laid out in the second edition of the Stevens-Costello Triple C Embouchure Technique. So check that book out as it says much more than I can. If you don't think that this is the correct way to play? Or if your teacher tells you it's wrong?

Ask your teacher to play a Ga above Double C. If he can't? Then he too is playing incorrectly. A properly formed embouchure can play Double C fairly easily. While a beginner probably be won't have much accuracy he'll still play this note.

But if he doesn't change his physics because he's satisfied with a limited embouchure and range? Hey it happens. Okay then by the very nature of having a range limitation or ceiling in register consider this,

Use every other physical advantage that you can find to help compensate for your deficient embouchure.

Use as shallow of a mouthpiece as you can. Have a professional Craftsman bore out the throat & back bore combination to negate most of the tinny quality. As time goes by and you get used to the much shallower piece? Switch to one even shallower! I'm not kidding. As it can take months to finally find the right groove in your shallowest piece.

Or if using a larger mouthpiece helps? Sure, then do that instead. Just keep open minded and avoid overtraining your chops. As this condition tends to cause depression in a brass player.


LOL!!! I must be the worst communicator on the forum! Two weeks after this comeback my High G (4 ledger lines) would paste you to the back wall. I have played several in rehearsals. A month after this comeback I am pretty solid to A/Bb above High C, but B to DHD isn't consistent yet. This is 100% because I have gone slow as I build back to avoid over training.

To have a reliable DHC and above we need to play up there a LOT. However, we can never strain when doing do. So in order to play DHC a lot and not straining means spending a lot of time in a practice session playing DHC and then resting. If you don't remember the setting you will miss the note, and if you force it you will quickly fatigue yourself and overtrain.

When playing lead in a big band, we rarely need to play a DHC. However, we do need a solid High G (4 ledger lines), great style, accuracy, and impeccable time. So it doesn't make sense to devote a bunch of practice time to working in the DHC range when those other things are still coming back.

The cool thing about this comeback is I am solidifying the techniques that work for me to play above High with power and without without fatigue.

1. Wedge breath. Mainly remembering to pull in my load stomach a little, not taking too big a breath, and breathing from my back

2. Tongue arch/anchor tonguing. Again, it's remembering the right amount. My most frustrating issue right now is "shelfing" as I am working up lead licks. It is something I had resolved before, and the solution is to remember breath support and tongue arch/anchor tongue.

3. Remembering the correct "feel", a little lips but mostly tongue position, for all notes but especially in the upper range. This is where "bite the high notes" ones from.

3. Backing off volume and trusting my projection

4. Resting, especially after working up lead licks on a new tune

Again, I make no assumption option that any of this works for anyone else.
_________________
Flip Oakes Inspiration
Wild Thing
Wedge MPs
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
INTJ
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 25 Dec 2002
Posts: 1973
Location: Northern Idaho

PostPosted: Sun Nov 14, 2021 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
You have incredible range. Did you use the Stevens' technique to achieve it?


I think my range is just what is obtainable for most of us given enough time and proper technique. I was a student of Pops for many years. When I came back after 23 years off in 2001, I found Pops about six months later and he put me on the right track. It was then a matter of grinding it out. It didn't come fast. It was 2010 before I started being able to play High Gs (4 ledger lines) in concerts.

Pops doesn't really push a particular embouchure type. He works with how you naturally play, with a focus on air support, tongue arch, anchor tonguing, and playing a lot in the upper range. He recommends playing High C and above 400 times per rehearsal session at the minimum. Some of his strong lead players do it 1500 times plus. The reason for that is muscle memory. The gotcha is that we can never strain, so it can take a lot of time at first.

I also like Bob Odneal's Casual DHC. It's really just a warm-up, and you wind up playing as high as you can without straining.
_________________
Flip Oakes Inspiration
Wild Thing
Wedge MPs
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Rod Haney
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 22 Aug 2015
Posts: 920

PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2021 8:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To get to a hi g after 2 weeks into comeback suggests a high level prior to the comeback. I am curious about one thing tho, are you an upstream or downstream player -ie more upper or lower lip in mp? I ask because I found a lot of freedom when I got more lower lip in mp.??
Rod
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Rod Haney
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 22 Aug 2015
Posts: 920

PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I’d really like to know this if you will share.
Rod
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
INTJ
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 25 Dec 2002
Posts: 1973
Location: Northern Idaho

PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rod Haney wrote:
I’d really like to know this if you will share.
Rod


I just now saw this. I am a downstream player. My horn angles down. I have noticed that a little more lower lip in the MP can sometimes make things work a little better, sometimes not.

I am not a high level player. Objectively, I have good range and tone, decent style, endurance, and accuracy; mediocre reading skills, and poor improv skills.
_________________
Flip Oakes Inspiration
Wild Thing
Wedge MPs
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
donovan
Veteran Member


Joined: 23 May 2002
Posts: 177
Location: Springfield, MO

PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2022 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Horn angle won't tell if you are upstream or downstream. Which lip is more prevalent in the cup?

More upper lip = downstream.
_________________
Donovan Bankhead
dkbmusic@gmail.com
www.springfield-music.com


Last edited by donovan on Tue May 03, 2022 8:36 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
tptptp
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 25 Oct 2001
Posts: 1257
Location: Georgia

PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2022 7:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lionel wrote:

The correct embouchure is explained and laid out in the second edition of the Stevens-Costello Triple C Embouchure Technique.


What's a reliable source to purchase this book? My search yielded suboptimal results.
_________________
Craig.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
bach_again
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 03 Apr 2005
Posts: 2380
Location: Northern Ireland

PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2022 7:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tptptp wrote:
Lionel wrote:

The correct embouchure is explained and laid out in the second edition of the Stevens-Costello Triple C Embouchure Technique.


What's a reliable source to purchase this book? My search yielded suboptimal results.


There is no "correct" embouchure. The Stevens Costello method works for some, not for others. YMMV.
_________________
Maestro Arturo Sandoval on Barkley Microphones!
https://youtu.be/iLVMRvw5RRk

David Koch, Gen 2 vs Gen 1 showdown:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGim9GgrojU

Bryan Davis, Oh Holy Night!
https://youtu.be/YHvUj9r-6ao
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
kehaulani
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 23 Mar 2003
Posts: 6500
Location: Hawai`i - Texas

PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2022 8:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tptptp wrote:
Lionel wrote:

The correct embouchure is explained and laid out in the second edition of the Stevens-Costello Triple C Embouchure Technique.


What's a reliable source to purchase this book? My search yielded suboptimal results.

Are you meaning the second edition, specifically, or Stevens-Costello in general? I have both a hard copy and digital copy both from credible publishers.
_________________
"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Charlie Parker
"Even if I could play like Wynton Marsalis, I wouldn't play like Wynton Marsalis." Attributed to Chet

Yamaha 8310Z
Benge 3X LA
Adams F-1 Flugelhorn
Weibster Cornet
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
tptptp
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 25 Oct 2001
Posts: 1257
Location: Georgia

PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2022 9:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
tptptp wrote:
Lionel wrote:

The correct embouchure is explained and laid out in the second edition of the Stevens-Costello Triple C Embouchure Technique.


What's a reliable source to purchase this book? My search yielded suboptimal results.

Are you meaning the second edition, specifically, or Stevens-Costello in general? I have both a hard copy and digital copy both from credible publishers.


I am unfamiliar with Stevens-Costello publications. It doesn't have to be 2nd edition. I was just looking for the publication cited by Lionel. Can you point me to a source?
_________________
Craig.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kehaulani
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 23 Mar 2003
Posts: 6500
Location: Hawai`i - Texas

PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2022 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the post I replaced here, I said that awkwardly. I mean it can easily be found with a google search and if you had trouble, maybe I can help you so you don't have any issues in the future.

Lionel refers to the 2nd Edition. It's found here: https://www.amazon.com/Embouchure-Self-Analysis-Stevens-Costello-Technique-Complete/dp/1469955911
_________________
"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Charlie Parker
"Even if I could play like Wynton Marsalis, I wouldn't play like Wynton Marsalis." Attributed to Chet

Yamaha 8310Z
Benge 3X LA
Adams F-1 Flugelhorn
Weibster Cornet


Last edited by kehaulani on Tue May 03, 2022 11:28 am; edited 6 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> High Range Development All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group