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rickoak Regular Member
Joined: 14 Oct 2020 Posts: 12 Location: Oakland, CA
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Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 2:12 pm Post subject: Why don’t more trumpets have a wide wrap? |
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One of the many things I love about the X-13 is the wider wrap. The extra space for the left hand makes holding the horn more comfortable and I suspect that the shortening of the horn as a result helps lead to its very good balance. This got me wondering why more horns don’t have a wider wrap. With most things there are trade-offs but I’m not seeing any downside in this case.
Does anyone have an idea of why we don’t see more horns with a wider wrap?
Rick |
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lipshurt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Feb 2008 Posts: 2642 Location: vista ca
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Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 2:42 pm Post subject: |
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Valve casings would have to be longer. I replaced the valve cluster in a 36b connstellation and the casings had to be .300 longer. So I made cap extensions, and also valve stem extensions. Worked real nice.
Wide wrap is something that changes the feel a lot compared to regular wrap. Wide feels bigger and it’s not subtle _________________ Mouthpiece Maker
vintage Trumpet design enthusiast
www.meeuwsenmouthpieces.com
www.youtube.com/lipshurt |
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Divitt Trumpets Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2015 Posts: 520 Location: Toronto
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yourbrass Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jun 2011 Posts: 3634 Location: Pacifica, CA, USA
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Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2022 8:11 am Post subject: |
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"Does anyone have an idea of why we don’t see more horns with a wider wrap?"
Because most makers have been copying Besson for so long they've forgotten why they started doing so in the first place!
BTW, totally agree w/you on the wide wrap, much more comfortable. _________________ "Strive for tone." -John Coppola
Edwards X-13
ACB MV3C /ACB A1/26 backbore
https://yourbrass.com/ |
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rickoak Regular Member
Joined: 14 Oct 2020 Posts: 12 Location: Oakland, CA
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Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2022 10:24 am Post subject: |
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I was wondering if I was missing something, but your answer may be right. Until I played a horn with a wide wrap I didn't know what I was missing.
Rick |
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Dale Proctor Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2005 Posts: 9361 Location: Heart of Dixie
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Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:50 am Post subject: |
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I have an old Conn 6B Victor trumpet that has a wide wrap (same as the old Connstellation trumpets), but it’s actually LONGER than a standard trumpet because of the shape of the bell and leadpipe. Nice instrument, though.
_________________ "Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham |
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dstpt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Dec 2005 Posts: 1286
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Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2022 12:24 pm Post subject: |
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Does anyone here know if CarolBrass makes a wide-wrap Bb trumpet? |
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wayben Regular Member
Joined: 20 Jan 2002 Posts: 60 Location: usa
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Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2022 2:05 pm Post subject: |
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OK, educate me please...what are some wide wrap trumpets? _________________ Calicchio 1s7 Trumpet
Lawler C7 Trumpet
Harrelson Summit Prototype Trumpet
Conn 40B Trumpet
Yamaha YTR-6310z Trumpet
Bach LR18037 Trumpet
Bach 184 Cornet |
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wayben Regular Member
Joined: 20 Jan 2002 Posts: 60 Location: usa
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Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2022 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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Never mind, I found it. _________________ Calicchio 1s7 Trumpet
Lawler C7 Trumpet
Harrelson Summit Prototype Trumpet
Conn 40B Trumpet
Yamaha YTR-6310z Trumpet
Bach LR18037 Trumpet
Bach 184 Cornet |
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Jaw04 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 31 Dec 2015 Posts: 900 Location: Bay Area, California
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Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2022 6:47 pm Post subject: Re: Why don’t more trumpets have a wide wrap? |
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rickoak wrote: | One of the many things I love about the X-13 is the wider wrap. The extra space for the left hand makes holding the horn more comfortable and I suspect that the shortening of the horn as a result helps lead to its very good balance. This got me wondering why more horns don’t have a wider wrap. With most things there are trade-offs but I’m not seeing any downside in this case.
Does anyone have an idea of why we don’t see more horns with a wider wrap?
Rick | Hey man! I'm also in Oakland and play an X-13. Cheers.
As for your question why not more wide wraps? I think that a longer sleeker horn is probably more attractive, and comfortable for smaller hands. For me, I'm a bit taller than average and love the feel of the X-13 in my hands as well. I think for some smaller folks it might be a little too big. |
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Notlem Veteran Member
Joined: 20 Nov 2021 Posts: 127
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Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2022 9:26 pm Post subject: |
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wayben wrote: | OK, educate me please...what are some wide wrap trumpets? |
New trumpets with wide wraps that I am aware of:
Edwards x-13
Adams A6
Monette horns
I’m in agreement that more should be offering this, we need all the horn manufacturers to all add a “big and tall” or “king sized” selection!
-marc |
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giakara Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Jul 2003 Posts: 3832 Location: Greece
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Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 12:35 am Post subject: |
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My Lawler TL5-1A has a wide wrap and I realize that is because it has a Edwards valve block, I say that because last year I lost the 3 valve screw and the Getzen valve block screw didn't fit but the Edwards sctew is exactly the same.
For me the most comfortable grip in a wide wrap horn was a old Van Laar CF model with the old Bauerfeind valve block , it was like a soft pillow in my hands ...
Regards _________________ Lawler TL5-1A Bb 2015
Lawler TL6-1A Bb 2004
Lawler TL5-1A Bb 2003
Getzen eterna 910 C
Getzen eterna 850 cornet
Selmer Paris 3 valve picc
Yamaha 731 flugel
Carol mini pocket
Reeves/Purviance mpcs |
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gregplo Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 Jan 2002 Posts: 505 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 4:41 am Post subject: Re: Why don’t more trumpets have a wide wrap? |
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rickoak wrote: | One of the many things I love about the X-13 is the wider wrap. The extra space for the left hand makes holding the horn more comfortable and I suspect that the shortening of the horn as a result helps lead to its very good balance.
Rick |
I also have an X-13 and love the wide wrap. I am tall, but do not have large hands, but still find it very comfortable to hold. I've had a Conn 38B Connstellation in the past, and loved the wide wrap on that horn as well. _________________ Best Regards,
Greg
Edwards Gen II
P. Mauriat PMT-75 (Ti/Copper)
Conn 61B
Benge 90B
Conn 80B LB
CarolBrass Arturo Sandoval Pocket Trumpet
CarolBrass CFL-620R
Getzen CB 610
Remember...when He returns, the trumpet shall sound.... |
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kevin_soda Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Jan 2015 Posts: 558 Location: Seattle
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Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2022 9:01 pm Post subject: |
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I have a Yamaha NY Bb and a Monette C trumpet. I, personally, don't really notice the difference in the wrap. _________________ Kevin |
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Jack Andersson Regular Member
Joined: 01 Oct 2004 Posts: 25
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Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2022 4:30 am Post subject: |
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Dear trumpet fellows,
I would like to add a great open wrap trumpet built
by Peter Pollard in England!
He calls it The Big Easy"!It´s built to be heard
I can´t add a picture unfortenately.It´s not working for me!
The trumpet has a big 13mm bore,plays more open than my Wild Thing!
best wishes,
Jack |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3303 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2022 5:33 am Post subject: Re: Why don’t more trumpets have a wide wrap? |
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rickoak wrote: | ... Does anyone have an idea of why we don’t see more horns with a wider wrap? ... |
-----------------------------------------
The 'air path' through the valve combinations needs to work, and that can affect the valve 'stroke length'. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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Subtropical and Subpar Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 May 2020 Posts: 625 Location: Here and there
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Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2022 9:58 am Post subject: |
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Notlem wrote: | wayben wrote: | OK, educate me please...what are some wide wrap trumpets? |
New trumpets with wide wraps that I am aware of:
Edwards x-13
Adams A6
Monette horns
I’m in agreement that more should be offering this, we need all the horn manufacturers to all add a “big and tall” or “king sized” selection!
-marc |
And in the very recent past, the Kanstul 990 and 991. (and in the more distant past obviously all the Conn wide wrap trumpets and long cornet - 6A, 6B, 8B, 10A, 10B, 12A, 12B, 28A, 38B, etc.) _________________ 1932 King Silvertone cornet
1936 King Liberty No. 2 trumpet
1958 Reynolds Contempora 44-M "Renascence" C
1962 Reynolds Argenta LB trumpet
1965 Conn 38A
1995 Bach LR18072
2003 Kanstul 991
2011 Schilke P5-4 B/G
2021 Manchester Brass flugel |
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Manuel de los Campos Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Jul 2004 Posts: 654 Location: Amsterdam, the Netherlands
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Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2022 1:32 pm Post subject: Re: Why don’t more trumpets have a wide wrap? |
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rickoak wrote: |
Does anyone have an idea of why we don’t see more horns with a wider wrap?
Rick |
Yes because why would you make a wide wrap trumpet anyway? My hands are really not that small and I found my former Buesscher True Tone Deluxe Aristocrat Custom Made peashooter very comfortable to hold; If the trumpet builder uses common sense by positioning the trow ring of the 3th slide right on the spot there is no need to build a bulky trumpet
http://www.buescherloyalist.com/Buescher%20235%20236%20custom%20built.html _________________ Technology alone is a poor substitute for experience. (Richard Sachs) |
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homebilly Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2010 Posts: 2197 Location: Venice, CA & Paris, France
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shofarguy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Sep 2007 Posts: 7011 Location: AZ
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Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2022 6:56 am Post subject: |
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I'm going to hazard a guess based on some things I learned about the nature of the industry, at least from Zig Kanstul's point of view, and from simple observation of a valve section design.
Geometry: A valve piston design is centered around the valve stroke. How far the piston has to move. The diameter of the ports, the diameter of the piston, the necessary components that have to fit into the piston sleeve and the amount of bearing surface all influence the physical characteristics of the valve assembly. There also needs to be enough material left between ports to dissipate heat without deforming or cracking. These and other considerations need to come together in a way that fits comfortably in the hand. The resulting design needs to work well under the players hands for many years. Scratch that. It needs to work for many players for many years, or the product won't succeed in the marketplace. If a new wrap requires a new valve section, there better be sufficient demand for it, or it won't be produced.
Tooling: The most (or maybe second most) important and expensive thing to develop in making a trumpet or any other instrument is the tooling. Whether it's the wood block used to bend the bell bow or the heavy plates used to position the valve block pieces while soldering, the tooling is at the heart of every step. There has to be a solid reason to create a separate set of tools for a different wrap.
Labor: The more differences in the steps, the more mistakes can happen, the better the laborers need to be, the more expensive they become...
Storage: The more individual parts and assemblies there are, the more organization and space is needed to keep it all in line.
Development: Start from zero - again - to make sure it all works properly and plays well.
Market: Is there enough demand to support all the extra effort needed to produce this wide wrap model?
The brass industry moves at a glacial pace, these days. Even changing finishes takes a major investment that might not pay off. Something as small as the color of the material that makes up those top cap pads under the finger buttons on a Bach or Kanstul Signature valve can reverberate with suspicion in the marketplace. I've seen it happen. With a shrinking market, it's becoming very rare indeed that a major manufacturer will take the plunge and create something truly new.
That's what makes the likes of the X-13 special, indeed. _________________ Brian A. Douglas
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper
There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds. |
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