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What fundamentally makes a trumpet “easier” to play


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PMonteiro
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2021 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For me, transitioning from leaky student instruments to airtight pro horns was a transformative experience. I'm now at a point where I can play the leaky student horns as well as any other, but it's noticeably harder when the horn is trying to fight you.
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huntman10
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2021 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I find the more I play a horn, the easier it becomes to play! And when the horn gets too easy to play, I seem to get bored and go on to another.

Probably why I never seem to get all that good at trumpet playing!

Or wealthy.....🤑🤪🤪
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Manuel de los Campos
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 29, 2021 7:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://www.trumpetworx.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/271430394-Bill-Adams-Daily-Routine.pdf
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Kumara999
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 29, 2021 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Manuel - I have already printed this off!
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Riojazz
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2021 8:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Among so many other things, I don't think compression and bore have been mentioned. Comparing two horns that are otherwise the same (yes, I know, that's not quite possible) different players would consider these to choose a horn based upon personal preference.

EDIT: I see on page 2, compression was mentioned (leaky).
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JonathanM
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2021 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some excellent comments are posted above; some very thoughtful responses indeed.

I was fortunate to have this Adams A2 prior to Heather, and it is a magnificent horn. We've both discussed the play of this A2 and are rather shocked by the ease of play and the tone it presents.

It's a newer horn (2018), so it is probably more efficient (less air leaks) than an older, non-cared-for horn; but there's more to this particular horn than just its youth. I picked up a very nice Wild Thing recently. The leadpipe is large (early model), but somewhere along the line enough resistance is present to enable ease of play without unexpected fatigue. This Adams may be similar; I suppose it's a larger leadpipe than some horns as the blow is so easy, but there's got to be something further down in the leadpipe design or tuning slide area that provides enough resistance for comfort and prevents premature fatigue.

I had mentioned the ease of blow to Heather shortly after I obtained the horn, and as she later played it and readily agreed, we both have wondered just what it is. A little bit of several previous contributors thoughts, I suppose.

Whatever the total answer is, some horns just don't have 'ease of play' for some owners (as is well addressed previously in this thread), and it's remarkably enjoyable when an owner and horn work well together.

This Adams A2 certainly is an unusually rewarding horn to play.
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irith
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2021 11:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A certain level of mechanical fit and finish is a pre-requisite - sluggish valves, lack of compression, poor slides, etc will make a horn frustrating to play.

After that, it's basically about response and the evenness of that response across the different registers.
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p76
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2022 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think another thing to consider is the instrument you were "brought up " on. Very early in my playing days I moved from a $50 Zenith (a truly horrible instrument) to what was then a 10 year old Yamaha YTR634. With the 5" bell and reverse leadpipe, it was quite an open horn to play.

It was my only horn for about 20 years, before I had the time and money to go on a bit of a safari. Since then I've played dozens of horns - both buying and selling my own, and extensive playing on friend's and colleague's instruments.

What have I found? The best trumpets (for me) are open horns, with very little resistance in the "normal" registers. As you can see from my profile, most of my horns are "open" instruments.

I think this is because all my formative playing was done on such an instrument.

My 2c worth

Cheers,
Roger
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popTbop
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2022 11:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



Last edited by popTbop on Thu Oct 20, 2022 10:53 am; edited 1 time in total
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Seymor B Fudd
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2022 5:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

popTbop wrote:
Resonance.

It's not just the resonant qualities of the instrument. It's the resonance of the "system": 1. the player, physically/mentally/emotionally 2. the mouthpiece 3. the horn (lest important), 4. the room/hall/space/microphone/etc.

They work in tandem to produce sound, which in turn produces music. They must resonate together so as to make performing the music easier. It's not just the physical resonance of the horn itself, but the resonance of all the components in the system that determines ease of playing.


Amen to that - with one exception: there are differences in the "resonance" between horns; my old King was a superb horn but nowadays it seems far less resonant than my new RC. To take but one example.
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2022 6:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

p76 wrote:
I think another thing to consider is the instrument you were "brought up " on. Very early in my playing days I moved from a $50 Zenith (a truly horrible instrument) to what was then a 10 year old Yamaha YTR634. With the 5" bell and reverse leadpipe, it was quite an open horn to play.

It was my only horn for about 20 years, before I had the time and money to go on a bit of a safari. Since then I've played dozens of horns - both buying and selling my own, and extensive playing on friend's and colleague's instruments.

What have I found? The best trumpets (for me) are open horns, with very little resistance in the "normal" registers. As you can see from my profile, most of my horns are "open" instruments.

I think this is because all my formative playing was done on such an instrument.

My 2c worth

Cheers,
Roger


Roger,

This is a very valid point. I grew up on a student level Holton Collegiate and when it came time to choose a professional grade trumpet, I did not pick a Bach Strad, like all my friends, but a Benge. There were a few reasons for this that have nothing to do with the horns, per se, it's just that the Benge suited me.

I still base my comparisons on that Benge. It is my benchmark, if you will. There have been better and worse horns in my personal journey, but I know that trumpet as if I were born with it. Other makes that feel and respond differently just don't "cut it" for me, even though many players love them. Calicchio trumpets are out there pretty far in that direction. Too different.
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TriumphantTrumpeter
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2022 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A very interesting topic.

Is there a particular set of attributes that make a trumpet easier to blow when there aren't any problems such as air leaks? Does an easy playing trumpet suffer in other respects such as tone and volume?

I have quickly acquired seven assorted trumpets myself and all of them seem to have good compression and no air leaks as far as I can tell. They are two Buescher 235 models from the 1930's, a Bach TR650 made in China and purchased new, a 'Gear4Music' red brass trumpet made in China, a French 1932 Couesnon, a Boosey and Hawkes (overseas ltd.) Regent and a Besson Westminster.

The easiest playing of of my seven trumpets are the Boosey and Hawkes and Besson which I figure are early to late 1950's which, and although branded differently and made in different places are essentially the same model. I gather that these were, essentially the 'student' models from Boosey and Hawkes at the time. Both play so smoothly, the notes are easy to find and the tone is sweet with plenty of volume available. Incredible that these trumpets, with good cases ,quality mouthpieces and, in one case three Selmer Styratone mutes included cost me very little money.
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INTJ
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like this topic. I am glad to see that everyone understands that each person is different. I struggled with playing trumpet for many years when trying to do things the way I was being taught, and I struggled to play horns that were what everyone else liked.

Claude Gordon, Doc Reinhardt, Bill Adams--none of that helped. It's not that those methods aren't excellent (they are), but the way those concepts were
taught didn't allow me to figure out how to play. After years of working through them I didn't improve. Pops and Bob Odneal's approaches are what works for me.

It was the same with horns. The standard Bach 37/25 MLB was a disaster for me. That is the most common configuration of trumpet, but I wasn't able to play in tune above the staff with that style of horn. A long time after I had developed range a half octave above High C, I still couldn't play in tune above the staff. I was very sharp.

I had owned and played a Getzen 900 Severinsen, a Getzen 700, a Yamaha 8335 LA, a Harrelson Bravura that was like a 72/25, a Carol Brass 37/25 clone, and a Carol Brass 500. I tried many different mouthpieces. The conventional wisdom had scared me off large bore horns, even though every time I tried one it was easier for me to play, but that was very early in my comeback.

One day, around 10 years into my comeback, I played on a Bach 72*/43 Large Bore horn. That IS a free blowing, open horn. It was amazing. I was easily in tune above the staff and didn't have to work so hard to play. My endurance was better as well. That was eye opening. So I got a Wild Thing, the second generation with the 43 lead pipe.

I have no idea WHY that kind of horn works for me. I don't know if it's the feedback off the horn, the amount of resistance, where the resistance is, or what. I just know it works for me.

I have often wondered if the issue was I was trying to find a horn early in my development. Well, I have tried normal horns and tighter horns even recently, and while I can play the normal/tight horns better than I did several years ago, they are still somewhat of a struggle.

I also think range we play in is a factor in what horn fits us. I am told that at G above High C that the harmonic nodes are "outside the bell" which changes playing characteristics. I guess I would need to see that on an oscilloscope chart to understand it. What I do know is I can play most horns to that note and make them work to varying levels. It's when I go above that that the horn gets more important. The right horn makes it easier, and it seems to me that the easier my extreme range, the easier the rest if my range.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

INTJ wrote:
The right horn makes it easier, and it seems to me that the easier my extreme range, the easier the rest if my range.

That's why it's always good to keep looking, and when you find one that fits, ignore what anyone else might say and buy it.

INTJ wrote:
I have no idea WHY that kind of horn works for me. I don't know if it's the feedback off the horn, the amount of resistance, where the resistance is, or what. I just know it works for me.

As a player, you shouldn't worry about it. If it works, it works.

If you are a teacher trying to fit a student, or a retailer trying to do the same, then it is important to know how to ask the right questions of the player to understand what it is that works for them and winnow the search, but as a player, just try horns. You'll eventually discover the traits that fit you - though there will always be surprises too, because you just never know which elements will dominate in a design.
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INTJ
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would argue that few teachers know WHY things work. Most don't even know how to teach more than one approach. They simply teach what worked for themselves personally. Pops is one huge exception and there are others.

As an instructor pilot, I need to know multiple techniques to teach. In the USAF that was a requirement of an instructor, to be able to perform and teach various maneuvers and aspects of flying using differing techniques.

Wouldn't it be great if before giving trumpet lessons a potential teacher had to go through training and be able to play using varying techniques. That includes having students try different horns if there is an issue.

The WHY doesn't matter. Theory is great and of some value, but the only thing of value is actual results......what actually works. The only way to get there is by trying different things and seeing what works.

Ultimately, each trumpet player will have to decide for themselves what horn and MP works best, and hopefully a teacher doesn't hinder that.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

int, if I understand this correctly, you are saying that teachers don't do a great deal to keep current with current teaching knowledge and methods and I find that really condescending. Yes, there are some dogs out there and even more competent teachers who are just burned out, but to summarily dismiss the dedication of our hard-working, and often underpaid, teachers just seem to me to be harsh.
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INTJ
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
int, if I understand this correctly, you are saying that teachers don't do a great deal to keep current with current teaching knowledge and methods and I find that really condescending. Yes, there are some dogs out there and even more competent teachers who are just burned out, but to summarily dismiss the dedication of our hard-working, and sometimes overworked, teachers just seems to me to be harsh.


Yes, I AM being a little hard on many trumpet teachers. I have had several, and typically each one only knows how to teach ONE way. So it falls to the student to go through teachers until he/she finds one that teaches a method that allows results. That approach can slow down a student's progress. It can discourage a student to the point they quit.

Now there are some who approach it with the idea of finding what works best for each individual student. Like Pops. Many teachers are honest about saying their method worked for them and it may or may not work for you.

I have no control over what you find condescending. I prefer to think of things in terms of differing opinions and keep arguments in the realm of ideas, not feelings. I realize that is diametrically opposed to what is popular today.

So the main point of my comments is this. If you try something and give it a solid effort, but you're not making progress, then try something different. Don't be fooled by what seems to work for most people, find what works for you. This applies to methods, equipment, and teachers.
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VetPsychWars
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2022 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For me, the easiest is the Buescher Model 217 Lightweight 400, which is an evolution of the Model 215 Custom Built. They both blow very free; Charlie Melk called the Model 217 "too open". Yet, we fitted me with a GR 65M, and and once I fit the moutpiece in the proper place on my face, everything clicked and it was dead easy.

Was it the horn? Was it the mouthpiece? or was it just that I got the proper embouchure for me? A pTrumpet with a Kelly 5C works just the same.

My "trick" was just enough air to find the resonant point and just enough lip strength to control the embouchure without choking it off. Total relaxation.

Then I quit playing because covid and hating community band music.

Ah well.

Tom
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