• FAQ  • Search  • Memberlist  • Usergroups   • Register   • Profile  • Log in to check your private messages  • Log in 

How do you set the mouthpiece on your chops ?


Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Fundamentals
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
TiredChops
Veteran Member


Joined: 17 Nov 2005
Posts: 242
Location: USA

PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 5:16 pm    Post subject: How do you set the mouthpiece on your chops ? Reply with quote

Hi all, I have a simple (I think) question for you:

Do you put the mouthpiece on your lips while they are loose and flabby or do you firm them up in some manner and then place the mouthpiece ?

I typically put the mouthpiece on while my lips are loose, it allows good flexibility and tone, but I have limited range and endurance.

I've tried firming my lip up and then placing the mouthpiece and it seems that I could play higher and longer with this setup, but my tone and flexibility suffer.

I'm just curious what others do.

Thanks !!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Robert P
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 28 Feb 2013
Posts: 2578

PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll be curious to see responses to this question.

I think of it as a multi-step process, putting together multiple pieces. There has to be a certain amount of tension - not too much, not too little. I play "wet" - on the top lip it's more a matter of finding the pocket to set it into, the spot or pocket on the bottom lip is less distinct - on the bottom lip it's more a matter of setting it on rather than into. I have a definite awareness of grabbing a certain amount of tissue, a definite awareness that I'm creating a reed within the mouthpiece. I've experimented with setting on completely relaxed lips - I can sort of make it work - I can play after a fashion but it doesn't feel or function right so there's no reason to do it - that bit of tension has to be there for the pocket for the mp to appear.

I'm also aware of opening the teeth and top and bottom lip overhang over the teeth, the jaw/bottom teeth moving a bit forward, the top lip muscles being tensioned in certain places, loose in others, on the bottom lip setting the muscles a certain way.

I'm much more aware of these elements than I was once upon a time - which is the result of a deliberate process of getting familiar with the feel of how to set to accommodate notes happening through observation and analysis - something I'm always trying to refine. Using a visualizer/mirror to see what my lips actually look like when buzzing helps, as does overall comparing the sensations to what's actually going on with a mirror.

This process is why I regard free-buzzing as pointless and potentially counterproductive. How things have to be set up to buzz bears no resemblance whatsoever to how they're set when actually playing. One of the things I do is play a note and snatch the horn off trying to not change anything. What becomes clear is that the presence of the mouthpiece - the way the mp depresses and deforms the tissue and presents and isolates the buzzing part of the lips to the space between the teeth and airstream and gives the muscles something to work against is a crucial part of the process that can't be duplicated without the mouthpiece in place. The way the muscles form - the balance and location of tension and relaxation, how the jaw and teeth are set when actually playing is totally different than how they have to be set to free-buzz. I have yet to hear anyone present an argument that I regard as compelling as to why free-buzzing is beneficial any more than how bowling would be likely to improve your bench press or shot-put.
_________________
Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C

Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo

Chinese Flugel


Last edited by Robert P on Thu Jan 20, 2022 8:35 pm; edited 6 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Seymor B Fudd
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 17 Oct 2015
Posts: 1458
Location: Sweden

PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 5:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robert P pretty much covered the topic;
I can only add some thoughts (in the same direction): I´ve found that setting up the chops in order to play a G top of staff is the way to go. Did so early on - joining the TH, buying some of his excellent material I found that Pops McLaughlin recommends doing so. Having this as a point of departure then the lips should be able to move flexibly - also the tongue seems involved, as when you think of phrases such as aa - ee etc etc. The Sarah Willis video should be instructive: https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=the+sarah+willis+MR+video Please do note what happens to her tongue when ascending! And vice versa.

The lips should be slightly puckered, as Robert P writes have a certain tension (as if you were to spit)

The trick is to learn how to, in a seemless way, transform the puckering into a more rolled in top lip; besides the BE method (which is excellent!) progressive flexibilities (from the low register and then up) are indispensable.

Then you may have to adapt your "aligning" to your personal constitution; For me this means slightly to the right because of a tooth broken once upon a time (I was 11 - now I am 79) - not much, people looking should belive that I place the mouthpiece in the middle.
For me - less top lip (you might as well get acquainted with the different types described by Dr Reinhardt: https://wilktone.com/?p=2500 - and more bottom lip.

Addendum: I´ve been recommended to put the mouthpiece onto
the lower lip; rim just below the red with the red beginning where the cup begins. This might be very individual.

Then there is a plethora of different views on this topic.....to be endlessly discussed on this and other forums...
So your question is not a simple one. Kind of a "sleeper"!
Now I will, as Robert P eagerly await further responses (and by doing that hopefully learn something new !)
_________________
Cornets:
Getzen Custom Series Schilke 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974)


Last edited by Seymor B Fudd on Wed Jan 19, 2022 2:28 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JayKosta
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 24 Dec 2018
Posts: 3274
Location: Endwell NY USA

PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 5:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not flabby lips.
Lips in 'mmm' position, and sometimes with a slight 'inward tension' of 'peee' to help establish lower lip aperture location. Pay attention to the amount and coordination of upper and lower lip rim pressure.
Then just 'blow' to discover what note/pitch occurs. Don't try for a particular note or pitch - just learn what happens!

The 'discover' part is important because it enables learning of what embouchure positions and adjustments RESULT in producing which notes.

After you've discovered and learned embouchure control, then you can try setting your embouchure for a desired note and play it - hopefully it works, but if not then you've learned some more.
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Billy B
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 12 Feb 2004
Posts: 6126
Location: Des Moines

PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 7:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Blow. In. The. Small. End.
_________________
Bill Bergren
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Yamahaguy
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 09 Dec 2004
Posts: 3992

PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 8:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robert P wrote:
On the top lip it's more a matter of finding the pocket to set it into, the spot or pocket on the bottom lip is less distinct - on the bottom lip it's more a matter of setting it on rather than into.
+1, I tend to 'place' the bottom set first and then 'tuck' my top into the mouthpiece.
Many years ago after an embouchure change this felt most secure and repeatable for me.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kehaulani
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 23 Mar 2003
Posts: 8964
Location: Hawai`i - Texas

PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Billy B wrote:
Blow. In. The. Small. End.


_________________
"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird

Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Getzen Capri Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
area51recording
Veteran Member


Joined: 23 Dec 2005
Posts: 480

PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Billy B wrote:
Blow. In. The. Small. End.


See....THIS is where it's been going off the rails for me!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Robert P
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 28 Feb 2013
Posts: 2578

PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 10:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Billy B wrote:
Blow. In. The. Small. End.

The audition panel at Juilliard said this issue is what kept me from being selected.
_________________
Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C

Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo

Chinese Flugel
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kehaulani
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 23 Mar 2003
Posts: 8964
Location: Hawai`i - Texas

PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

area51recording wrote:
Billy B wrote:
Blow. In. The. Small. End.


See....THIS is where it's been going off the rails for me!


May be a little sarcastic or black humor but it's a valid answer to the question. That is exactly what I do, too. Every answer doesn't have to be micro-analyzed (not that your's are, Area).

I put the horn to my lips and form my embouchure, simultaneously, with no thought to its formation. Why? Because I've been doing it so long, it's second nature.

Valid answer. The intent was to see what each responder does or does not do.
_________________
"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird

Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Getzen Capri Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn


Last edited by kehaulani on Tue Jan 18, 2022 7:53 pm; edited 3 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
dstpt
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 14 Dec 2005
Posts: 1272

PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear TiredChops,

Your moniker says it all!

Hahahahaha!!!!

No offense. Couldn’t resist.
===============
All kidding aside:

1. Some say setting the chops for higher notes and learning to relax to get lower notes is easier than setting for lower notes and straining for the higher ones. Kind of like walking down the stairs is generally considered easier than up. This is likewise one of my takeaways from what Hakan Hardenberger implicates in his Monster Chats interview, when he says that players start out too low and instead should be easily set for 4th-space E as their first note.

It also seems to be the chop setup result from this coffee straw technique that I stumbled upon yesterday...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZdI2vzW1iY

I will be trying this technique as soon as I get some coffee straws. I don't think any Starbucks has them easily accessible since COVID, so that will have to be from the grocery store when we need more bananas in the next couple of days.

2. Some will advise you to get a good teacher, which might not be a bad idea for one struggling.

3. You could read through this online dissertation that I discovered recently...

https://ourarchive.otago.ac.nz/bitstream/handle/10523/9730/MilesStevenJ2018PhD.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

...which lists a composite of embouchure approaches found in the world today. WARNING: It may get some of you really riled up, because some/most of those approaches may not fit your way of how it all works. The details of some approaches discussed had that effect on me! But it was enlightening. (Admittedly, I only got through the first 48 pages or so and then started skipping through the rest. The lack of proper possessive [’s] bothered me, too, but maybe that’s the way it’s done down under in New Zealand?)

As for free buzzing, mouthpiece buzzing, and other such approaches, I have tried them, and I can make them "work," but I find that they are like the Chicago Bears in the 1970s taking ballet as a cross-training activity to help develop their skills on the field. How in the world would ballet help playing (American) football?! Balance. Maybe that's why some of these techniques help certain players and teachers (not meaning “balance,” specifically, but a form of “cross-training, working the muscles/tissue in different ways). There are professional players and university/conservatory teachers that feel strongly about the results they’ve gotten using some of these techniques.

When it comes to embouchures, I do not think one size (approach) fits all. Also, some players/students will need some detailed "care" and instruction along the way, while for others, it's just a matter of the trumpet players' go-to scriptures:

"Set the trumpet to thy mouth!" (Hosea 8:1)
“Blow ye the trumpet in Zion!” (Joel 2:1)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
silverhorn
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 08 Jan 2003
Posts: 681

PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My lips are neither loose and flabby nor overly firm and tight when I place the mouthpiece to my chops. I would describe my lips as in a position of buzzing firmness. When I free buzz my lips, the firmness is the same as just before I buzz a note or right after I have buzzed a note. They are relaxed, but not flabby relaxed. They still have some tone to maintain the embouchure setup position but not overly tight or firm to start.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
dstpt
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 14 Dec 2005
Posts: 1272

PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's another thought about embouchure or playing approach:

What if all of those chop techniques listed in the aforementioned dissertation (and any others, including approaches that avoid any detailed discussion about the chops!) are valid for certain people, pending personal physiology and how the mind processes using the body? Then it would be a matter of figuring out what works best for you...which is kind of what some approaches advocate, anyway! (It's a vicious circle!)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Robert P
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 28 Feb 2013
Posts: 2578

PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yamahaguy wrote:
Robert P wrote:
On the top lip it's more a matter of finding the pocket to set it into, the spot or pocket on the bottom lip is less distinct - on the bottom lip it's more a matter of setting it on rather than into.
+1, I tend to 'place' the bottom set first and then 'tuck' my top into the mouthpiece.
Many years ago after an embouchure change this felt most secure and repeatable for me.

When I was in high school I was in a band with a guy named Bunny Carfagno - some people on here might have heard of him. Real solid player - jazz and lead. I was watching him set the mouthpiece and he did essentially what you describe - it was interesting watching him finding "just the right spot" - with his top lip, doing a sort of "rabbit" motion. He had very thin lips that looked totally different than mine - he had basically no vermilion at all.

In contrast I remember watching one of the guys on the Gong Show band set his mouthpiece - he did this thing where he would tilt his head down, point the horn way up, plant the mouthpiece on the top lip and when he'd found "the spot" bring the horn down. I'd never seen someone do it that way before.

I've paid attention to Doc over the years and observed him doing it more than one way and his placement has changed quite a bit over time - he used to put it really high, about like Harry James - over time he brought it down which coincided with his gaining range. I believe he concluded that having less upper lip in the mp gave him a shorter upper half of the reed and facilitated the high range. The set he uses now seems to be different yet again, I think as a result of age and from what I understand a bout with Bell's Palsy where apparently he had to rehab to be able to play at all.

Hard to see clearly what Al Hirt did because of his thick beard and 'stache.
_________________
Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C

Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo

Chinese Flugel
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Billy B
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 12 Feb 2004
Posts: 6126
Location: Des Moines

PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Blow the embouchure into place.
_________________
Bill Bergren
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Robert P
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 28 Feb 2013
Posts: 2578

PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2022 7:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Billy B wrote:
Blow the embouchure into place.

This doesn't really get to what he was asking - what do you do when you first set the mp on your lips? What do you do with your lips and how do you know when you've found the spot?
_________________
Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C

Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo

Chinese Flugel
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
TiredChops
Veteran Member


Joined: 17 Nov 2005
Posts: 242
Location: USA

PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2022 7:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robert P wrote:
Billy B wrote:
Blow the embouchure into place.

This doesn't really get to what he was asking - what do you do when you first set the mp on your lips? What do you do with your lips and how do you know when you've found the spot?


+1
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
TiredChops
Veteran Member


Joined: 17 Nov 2005
Posts: 242
Location: USA

PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2022 7:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dstpt wrote:
Dear TiredChops,

Your moniker says it all!

Hahahahaha!!!!

No offense. Couldn’t resist.

It also seems to be the chop setup result from this coffee straw technique that I stumbled upon yesterday...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZdI2vzW1iY


3. You could read through this online dissertation that I discovered recently...

https://ourarchive.otago.ac.nz/bitstream/handle/10523/9730/MilesStevenJ2018PhD.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y


LOL, yes the name "TiredChops" was no accident

Thanks for the YouTube and .PDF links. I found them very interesting.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
stuartissimo
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 17 Dec 2021
Posts: 956
Location: Europe

PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2022 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TiredChops wrote:
Robert P wrote:
Billy B wrote:
Blow the embouchure into place.

This doesn't really get to what he was asking - what do you do when you first set the mp on your lips? What do you do with your lips and how do you know when you've found the spot?

+1

While I find Billy’s brief posts as unconstructive as the next guy, in essence he’s got a point. I found my optimal chop setting pretty much that way: focus on the sound, blow and my chops found the spot that took the least effort to make the biggest sound with the most control, pretty much on their own. I knew I found it when I first played a G on top of the staff at PP without straining or pressing hard (something I’d been unable to do up until then). Before that I kinda set my mouthpiece dead-center (the theoretical optimum) but it turned out that actually made playing much harder (for me that is, ymmv).

So basically, why not try it? Relax, blow, and let your chops do as they want. If it doesn’t work, no harm done right?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Trumpjerele
Veteran Member


Joined: 20 Feb 2019
Posts: 163
Location: Spain

PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2022 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

After many years struggling to sustain every note that came out of my trumpet, I have changed the mechanics of the first note release, possibly also the embouchure, and it works better for me.

This is what I do: I moisten both lips with my tongue, roll in them slightly and place the mouthpiece on my lips, apply light pressure.

Then, I loosen all my muscles by holding the mouthpiece to my lips, open my mouth to breathe, and blow and tense my muscles at the same time.

On the other hand, I envy people who imagined a beautiful trumpet sound in their mind and then their body did whatever it took to reproduce it. For years I tried to make it happen, but it never happened. I guess I have no imagination.
_________________
Notice!!! Amateur musician without formal studies

Trumpet: Yamaha 8310Z
Mouthpiece: the great Yamaha11b4

Sax tenor: Yamaha YTS 23
Mouthpiece: Otto link tone edge
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Fundamentals All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
Page 1 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group