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JayKosta
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Joined: 24 Dec 2018
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Location: Endwell NY USA
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 Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2022 2:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Trumpjerele wrote: | ...
This is what I do: I moisten both lips with my tongue, roll in them slightly and place the mouthpiece on my lips, apply light pressure.
Then, I loosen all my muscles by holding the mouthpiece to my lips, open my mouth to breathe, and blow and tense my muscles at the same time. ... |
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Do you get reliable results - meaning you can depend on having a (the same) good note be produced each time?
If that happens, then it means you've learned (trained yourself) to have the same mouthpiece setting, and embouchure adjustment each time.
If doing that does not reliably produce the desired result, what do you do next?
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Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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scottfsmith
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Joined: 27 Jun 2015
Posts: 474
Location: Maryland
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| Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2022 4:10 pm Post subject: |
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| dstpt wrote: | | Some say setting the chops for higher notes and learning to relax to get lower notes is easier than setting for lower notes and straining for the higher ones. Kind of like walking down the stairs is generally considered easier than up. This is likewise one of my takeaways from what Hakan Hardenberger implicates in his Monster Chats interview, when he says that players start out too low and instead should be easily set for 4th-space E as their first note.
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This really resonates with me.
I have perennially had a problem of too much work to get the high notes out. In particular anything above G top of staff felt like too much work. I thought I was just not in good enough shape. But recently my teacher suggested an exercise where I free buzz a low Bb pitch, and then slowly put mouthpiece (in trumpet) on lips aiming to hit a lower in the staff G. Then play a scale up. Well, I can easily play a scale a whole octave beyond G above the staff if I do that - a real shocker! Unfortunately when I go back down the scale when I get below the G in the staff things are too close and the notes break up. So, I need to be a little bit further apart than this exercise dictates for me, but it shows I was waaaay to far apart before. My low notes were easy and awesome but I was making the highs too hard.
I am now setting closer together and am finally understanding how people can play high notes all night on the trumpet without being superhuman.
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Robert P
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| Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2022 4:49 pm Post subject: |
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I'm convinced the shape of your lips has a bearing on the experience of setting the mouthpiece.
I have pretty full lips and for a long time felt this was an impediment. I had to learn to have the mouthpiece feel "at home" on the lips.
I find if I pull the vermilion in to give myself artificially thin lips, the experience of setting the mouthpiece is very different. It very readily finds a nice pocket or "notch" to set into. I know that my buddy who had naturally thin lips - the inner rim of the mp is on the white of his lips. He never had the problems I did struggling with the mouthpiece. I can't actually play that way - the tissue is put in a very dense, unnatural configuration but I believe thinning my lips like that gives me an insight as to what the experience is like for him and others.
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Trumpjerele
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| Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2022 1:36 am Post subject: |
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I don't know how to use quotes, so I apologize, replying to Jay Costa.
I'm not infallible, and sometimes an initial note escapes me, of course. If I'm making music I keep going, what else can I do?
If I'm at home practicing, I repeat the note until I get it right several times in a row.
Sometimes I fail because I don't have the note in my head, other times because of anxiety. insecurity causes them to take in too much air, like someone who is drowning, which generates tension and discomfort, or to squeeze the mouthpiece before blowing. I need to calm down before trying again.
I also practice emission exercises like those in the Frankin Merri or Shuebruk book or simply arpeggios, separating the mouthpiece from my lips after each note.
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Billy B
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Joined: 12 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2022 7:13 am Post subject: |
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| Robert P wrote: | | Billy B wrote: | | Blow the embouchure into place. |
This doesn't really get to what he was asking - what do you do when you first set the mp on your lips? What do you do with your lips and how do you know when you've found the spot? |
Lips together as in saying M. Mom.. Leave it alone and blow. The mind will direct the body to the sound. Manipulation will cause isometric tension ( muscle working against muscle) resulting in diminished efficiency and a “tight” sound.
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Last edited by Billy B on Mon Jan 24, 2022 7:52 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Billy B
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| Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2022 7:18 am Post subject: |
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| stuartissimo wrote: | | TiredChops wrote: | | Robert P wrote: | | Billy B wrote: | | Blow the embouchure into place. |
This doesn't really get to what he was asking - what do you do when you first set the mp on your lips? What do you do with your lips and how do you know when you've found the spot? |
+1 |
While I find Billy’s brief posts as unconstructive as the next guy, in essence he’s got a point. I found my optimal chop setting pretty much that way: focus on the sound, blow and my chops found the spot that took the least effort to make the biggest sound with the most control, pretty much on their own. I knew I found it when I first played a G on top of the staff at PP without straining or pressing hard (something I’d been unable to do up until then). Before that I kinda set my mouthpiece dead-center (the theoretical optimum) but it turned out that actually made playing much harder (for me that is, ymmv).
So basically, why not try it? Relax, blow, and let your chops do as they want. If it doesn’t work, no harm done right? |
Yes. My posts are meant to get people to think. Without being in the same room it is impossible to give specific advice. Everyone is different, hears differently, and specific advice is most often misconstrued.b
Trumpet playing is quite simple, but it isn’t easy.
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Wilktone
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| Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2022 7:34 am Post subject: |
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I firm my lips up in "buzzing formation," then set the mouthpiece on the lips. When I inhale I try to keep the lip center lightly touching inside the mouthpiece and only breathe through my mouth corners in order to keep the embouchure formation consistent underneath the rim of the mouthpiece.
Whatever you're used to is going to feel most comfortable, but I feel it's better to firm the lips before placing the mouthpiece and to breathe in such a way as to keep the embouchure formation consistent under the mouthpiece. If you firm the lips after setting the mouthpiece you will be twisting or winding up your lips underneath the rim. If you open your mouth wide to breathe and try to get everything set at the point of blowing the note you're going to be hitting a moving target after each breath. As I said, you can get used to doing that, but if you become comfortable with keeping your embouchure formation stable from the initial set through all interphase breaths it will probably work better in the long term.
Ignoring your technique in the hope that your body will figure itself out if you concentrate on sound alone can work, but you can also develop unconscious habits this way. It's possible to get better at playing "wrong," so I prefer that my students understand what efficient playing mechanics are. Having that knowledge doesn't mean that you need to dwell on it when you practice, but it does help you spot check how you're playing to keep playing consistently in a correct manner. There are ways that we can visualize mechanical procedures like this in order to avoid problems that can result from having too internal a focus, but different analogies and points of focus will work for different players, depending on the individual's mindset and experiences. Talk this over with your teacher.
Don't worry about your lip vermillion, it really doesn't matter when it comes to how or where you set the mouthpiece compared with the rest of your lip. The same muscle that encircles your mouth is also underneath the vermillion and the red part of your lips is perfectly capable of accepting the pressure of the mouthpiece (provided you are firming your embouchure enough and not using excessive pressure - which is true regardless of where you place the mouthpiece). There's also no mechanical reason why you can't place the mouthpiece on the red of the lips, provided that your anatomy makes that placement most efficient for you. The same applies to placement off to one side. Use the placement that works best for you, not what your favorite player does or how your teacher plays. Everyone's different.
Dave
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delano
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| Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2022 7:45 am Post subject: |
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| Billy B wrote: |
Yes. My posts are meant to get people to think. Without being in the same room it is impossible to give specific advice. Everyone is different, hears differently, and specific advice is most often misconstrued.b
Trumpet playing is quite simple, but it isn’t easy. |
It seems necessary to repeat this wisdom time after time, still some here believe wisdom and truth come only with an ample quantity of words. |
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kehaulani
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Joined: 23 Mar 2003
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Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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| Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2022 8:31 am Post subject: |
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| Billy B wrote: | | So basically, why not try it? Relax, blow, and let your chops do as they want. |
@Billy, are you also saying that, for the upper register, the lips remain pliable and tension free? That there is no isometric-tension increase as one ascends?
An aside, is this orthodox Adam teaching or your clarification of it?
(This is a non-judgemental question. Just want to know how it relates.)
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Steve A
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| Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2022 9:49 am Post subject: |
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| Billy B wrote: | | Robert P wrote: | | Billy B wrote: | | Blow the embouchure into place. |
This doesn't really get to what he was asking - what do you do when you first set the mp on your lips? What do you do with your lips and how do you know when you've found the spot? |
Lips together as in saying M. Mother. Leave it alone and blow. The mind will direct the body to the sound. Manipulation will cause isometric tension ( muscle working against muscle) resulting in diminished efficiency and a “tight” sound. |
I think there's a lot of good in what you're saying here - I definitely agree about blowing the embouchure into place, but I think the "say M" advice works better for some people than others. Maybe it's lip shape, or jaw shape, or something to do with how people speak - I don't know why, but this just isn't a good starting point for me, or for some others I know. (Yes, I know it's great advice for many people - I'm not saying it's wrong for them, just that I don't think it's always the right starting point for everyone.)
I saw Gail Williams explain a different approach years ago in a masterclass that works a lot better for me, and might be helpful for others. Here's a recent youtube link where Steve Woomert of the Toronto Symphony shows the same starting technique:
https://youtu.be/UiIJ8gvk65w?t=433 |
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kalijah
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| Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2022 9:58 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | but I think the "say M" advice works better for some people than others. |
That could be due to the varying way individuals execute that setting. The goal is for a very low-effort, lips-touching, natural lip posture. It is as much about the low-effort state than a nominal consonant, such as "m".
Actual playing postures rarely relate to a direct match to a particular language posture.
Buzzing the mouthpiece should NEVER be included in a beginner lesson. |
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kehaulani
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| Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2022 10:15 am Post subject: |
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Steve, I've looked at this video twice and can't find where he does or doesn't advocate a "Mother' lip position for the mouthpiece. As a matter of fact, i don't see him advocating any particular formation, other than just saying "buzz". Could you tell me what I may have overlooked? Thanks.
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Steve A
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| Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2022 10:42 am Post subject: |
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| kehaulani wrote: |
Steve, I've looked at this video twice and can't find where he does or doesn't advocate a "Mother' lip position for the mouthpiece. As a matter of fact, i don't see him advocating any particular formation, other than just saying "buzz". Could you tell me what I may have overlooked? Thanks. |
Sorry if I didn't make that clear. I meant the part where he holds his hand under his chin, blows a stream of air onto his hand, then follows his hand with the airstream while moving his hand out in front of his mouth. I don't mean to put words into his mouth, but I believe the idea behind this is to get the lips into a starting position that's conducive to playing. (Which is what I understood the idea of the "M" to be, rightly or wrongly.) |
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JayKosta
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| Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2022 11:08 am Post subject: |
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That video was initially quite confusing to me!
Because he SAYS to have your hand 'follow the air' -
I think he actually means 'raise your hand and make your air follow it'.
Basically what he is DOING is adjusting his jaw position and lip posture.
Yes - SIMPLE - but not easy to describe.
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Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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kehaulani
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| Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2022 11:25 am Post subject: |
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Thanks, Steve.
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"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
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Billy B
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| Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2022 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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| kehaulani wrote: | | Billy B wrote: | | So basically, why not try it? Relax, blow, and let your chops do as they want. |
@Billy, are you also saying that, for the upper register, the lips remain pliable and tension free? That there is no isometric-tension increase as one ascends?
An aside, is this orthodox Adam teaching or your clarification of it?
(This is a non-judgemental question. Just want to know how it relates.) |
Isometric tension is never a good thing.
100% Bill Adam.
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Robert P
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| Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2022 8:25 pm Post subject: |
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| kehaulani wrote: | | Billy B wrote: | | So basically, why not try it? Relax, blow, and let your chops do as they want. |
@Billy, are you also saying that, for the upper register, the lips remain pliable and tension free? That there is no isometric-tension increase as one ascends?
An aside, is this orthodox Adam teaching or your clarification of it?
(This is a non-judgemental question. Just want to know how it relates.) |
There has to be tension - the trick is the right balance and encroachment on the mouthpiece - a slight amount is transferred to the vibrating tissue.
After setting you have to find the target tension to attack the note you want, the way you want along with all the other elements - right horn/teeth angle, pressure distribution, teeth opening, tongue position, air.
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Billy B
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Robert P
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| Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2022 10:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Billy B wrote: | | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKSPIDRJuEA |
Fantastic!
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abontrumpet
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| Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2022 1:21 am Post subject: |
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| Wilktone wrote: | Don't worry about your lip vermillion, it really doesn't matter when it comes to how or where you set the mouthpiece compared with the rest of your lip. The same muscle that encircles your mouth is also underneath the vermillion and the red part of your lips is perfectly capable of accepting the pressure of the mouthpiece (provided you are firming your embouchure enough and not using excessive pressure - which is true regardless of where you place the mouthpiece). There's also no mechanical reason why you can't place the mouthpiece on the red of the lips, provided that your anatomy makes that placement most efficient for you.
Dave |
I'll always chime in to disagree when this is posted (sorry Dave, not personal). It's gotten to the point where I can tell that a trumpeter plays in the red (top lip) without looking at them after hearing them play for about 5 minutes. While there may not be a mechanical and physiological reason that you can't play in the red, it's very rare that it works for your average trumpeter.
For the OP: if you don't think about it too much, your placement will generally settle where it's efficient. Just advise to keep it out of the red on the top lip. There are so many variables in playing that it's better to develop really great habits and then worry about the placement later if it is really the thing holding you back. |
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