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Where does my Bach Strad Reverse Leadpipe 43 stack up?


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raynjtrumpet
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2022 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As we're listing various contemporary jazz, pop and studio artists who "still" play Bach, we should probably mention Rashawn Ross, best known for his work with Dave Matthews, but who is also a frequent studio musician. He is a Bach endorsing artist, and I believe he plays a custom 65, but also recommends 18037's and 19037's. You can see his videos where he tests specific horns you can actually buy on the "Artist Select" program tab on the bachbrass.com site. They sound pretty professional to me.

I think we frequently over-obsess on the role that the brand and model may play. I have enjoyed having a new horn, and it has helped me keep to my practice routine in my last 11 months of comeback, and made it more fun for me. I love seeing new makers and models emerge, and would love being closer to a big shop where I could try more horns out. But I understand very well that the biggest stumbling block in my path is not my horn, or my mouthpiece, but just me. There's no substitute for putting in the work.
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stuartissimo
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2022 8:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The thing is that when it comes to professional level trumpets, the law of diminishing returns really kicks in, to the point where it becomes more about personal preference than ‘better’. That’s not to say that Bach makes the best horns (what is ‘best’ anyway?) but to call Strads (provided they’re without issues) anything less than ‘professional level’ would be incorrect.
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trickg
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2022 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I probably should have spent some time wading through the other answers in this thread, but I didn't.

To address what the OP asked - where that reverse leadpipe Strad ML 43 stacks up, it stacks up just fine - it's fully a professional horn and IMO is a good lead horn - it can be dark and smoky, or you can really light it up. 43 bells are easy to change the sound and color - that's one of the characteristics of that bell.

As for the idea that it may be a tier down, that's what you're going to hear from equipment snobs who throw money at gear trying to find a solution that would best be found in the practice room. That's just my opinion though, and you know what they say about those.

I think that attitude comes from the fact that at present, there are more good boutique and smaller builders out there than you can shake a stick at. The horn in my signature - the Shires Model B - is one of those. I didn't buy it - I was lucky enough that the National Guard band bought it for me, although I'll have to give it back when I get out - it's not actually mine.

So, you "can" get another horn, but there's no need to. I know a guy who played an old New York Bach Strad that was so old it had patches brazed all over it, and it probably should have been replaced. Similarly, in hindsight, if I'd known then what I know now, I'd probably have just gotten a good overhaul done on my original ML 37 Strad I got in high school, but I'd eaten some holes in a couple of places because it was my main axe for a decade - I probably did more good playing on that trumpet than any other single trumpet I've ever owned.

So it's up to you - look into a new horn if you want, or keep on ripping with the 43. If it's still in great mechanical shape, in your shoes, I'd stick with the 43.
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adagiotrumpet
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2022 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For what it's worth, I played split lead with a Bach 43 with a major road band in the 90's and early 2000's. The other lead player also played a Bach 43 and he was considered to be one of the monster New York lead players in the 50's and 60's. I currently use a Bach large bore with a 25 bell to play lead basically because it provides the sound I want on lead and it cuts through even better than any of my Schilke B3's, and those are monster lead horns. And for those of you that think a Bach is not best suited for playing jazz, check out Dave Douglas. Even Maynard Ferguson played a Bach in the early 50's.
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markag
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2022 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only reason I keep poking is because I’m hoping to generate conversation and suggestions about what tier or group of horns could be the next step beyond what I have now, and I’m sharing the impression that I get as a Strad player when people make comments or infer that a Strad isn’t the right horn for the job.

I don’t doubt that the 180 Bach Strads are pro horns, I was just trying to see what horns would be a step up, specifically within the jazz, commercial space. Sorry to the orchestral players, but I’m just not interested in moving that direction. My Strad already seems like a great fit for that side of the coin. Any comments I’ve stated critiquing my Strad are really very minor nitpicks, but they represent the areas I would like to improve. I also recognize the fact that a late 1990s Strad has a reputation of not being as consistent and built as well as older horns built decades earlier.

I’ve seen suggestions of swapping to the 43 leadpipe, or trying a new tuning slide with a more radiused profile (if those exist off the shelf for a reverse lead Strad, I would be curious to try it out). I’m already engaged in mouthpiece trials to see if the setup I’ve been using for nearly 20 years could be improved.

I’m not ready to purchase anything now, but I’m ballpark thinking of something in the $3500-4000 USD range as a tentative price point. I think I said in one of the earlier posts that the Adams A4LT and possibly the Adams A1 Gen 2 are of interest to me. Other options that are more specialized towards jazz and big band playing would be open to me too. I don’t plan to get rid of my Strad, I would be looking to add a horn that leans in the direction. I like the idea of mor of an artisan horn that is hand made with modern features and creature comforts than a mass produced stencil trumpet (hence my interest in the Adams trumpets).
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adagiotrumpet
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2022 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It appears that the OP is influenced more by those who "infer that a Strad isn't the right horn for the job". Based on that mindset, it probably won't be. Good luck with your $3500-4000 safari.
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Dayton
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2022 1:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The only reason I keep poking is because I’m hoping to generate conversation and suggestions about what tier or group of horns could be the next step beyond what I have now,


I've owned and played a lot of horns over the years. I don't believe there is a step up from a Bach Strad. They are top-quality professional horns. That doesn't mean that there isn't a better match out there for you -- how you play and what you play -- than the LR18043, perhaps a much better match. The only way you'll know that is to try a bunch of other professional horns.

Visit a store with a wide range of horns -- Thompson Music, J. Landress, Dillon Music, etc. -- and try as many of them as you can. Or go to the ITG conference, one of the big state music educator conferences, Midwest, or another event with a lot of manufacturers represented.

If you like the 43 bell, the 19043, LR19043B, and Shires B would be worth trying. But Adams, Getzen/Edwards, Harrelson, Larson, Powell, Schilke, Shires, Stomvi, Van Laar, Yamaha...and others I am not familiar enough with to comment on...make high-quality instruments, one of which might be a better match for you than your current horn. Good luck!
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trumpetchops
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2022 3:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dayton wrote:
Quote:
The only reason I keep poking is because I’m hoping to generate conversation and suggestions about what tier or group of horns could be the next step beyond what I have now,


I've owned and played a lot of horns over the years. I don't believe there is a step up from a Bach Strad. They are top-quality professional horns. That doesn't mean that there isn't a better match out there for you -- how you play and what you play -- than the LR18043, perhaps a much better match. The only way you'll know that is to try a bunch of other professional horns.

Visit a store with a wide range of horns -- Thompson Music, J. Landress, Dillon Music, etc. -- and try as many of them as you can. Or go to the ITG conference, one of the big state music educator conferences, Midwest, or another event with a lot of manufacturers represented.


I'll go with this. Saved me a lot of typing.
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Shawnino
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2022 6:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the bumpy reaction towards Bachs flows from two sources.
--Ownership changes after V. Bach
--Protracted past labour issues that affected quality

I have never owned a Bach.
I have had occasion to play several.
All the ones I tried were of very good quality and the limitations were mine not the horns'.
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trickg
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2022 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dayton wrote:
I've owned and played a lot of horns over the years. I don't believe there is a step up from a Bach Strad. They are top-quality professional horns.

I've probably played more Bachs that were dogs than Bachs that were good. For a long long time their consistency was all over the map, and for that reason I think that there are a lot of horns that are a step up from a Strad. This isn't to say that Strads are bad - they aren't - but they certainly aren't the only game in town either.
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Dayton
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2022 1:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
This isn't to say that Strads are bad - they aren't - but they certainly aren't the only game in town either.


My experience with Bachs has been different than yours, but I completely agree with you that they aren't the only game in town. Anyone considering a new horn should try as many as they can get their hands on: Bach, Getzen/Edwards, Schilke, Shires, Van Laar, Yamaha....Lots of fine horns out there.
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spitvalve
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2022 5:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a Bach LR180ML37 and it's a great all-around horn and I like it. I also have other horns I like and there's a lot of other horns out there waiting for me to like them. I should practice more, however, and not worry about the safari.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2022 8:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

At the end of the day, you can play a Bach, or you can play something that will inevitably only be understood when qualitatively compared to a Bach.

I'm not saying that's an ideal situation, just that it is the way it is - and such socio-cultural conventions tend to happen for reasons, not just by chance
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2022 9:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:
At the end of the day, you can play a Bach, or you can play something that will inevitably only be understood when qualitatively compared to a Bach. ...

----------------------
Yes, Bach is the 'standard of comparison' for pro-level trumpets.
It is NOT the 'gold standard'.
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markag
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2022 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Has anyone on here played significant time on a 180 Bach Strad and then switched to something else? I would be interested to know why you switched, what you switched to, and what your experience with the new horn was like. Any stories or anything you would want to share would add to the info to help me or others aware of what's out there.
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dstpt
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2022 6:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I grew up on Bach Stradivarius trumpets and played them for years. I agree with others here that they are pro horns and would never think differently of them. However, I got frustrated with the Bach Bb and C tpts I had. What did I do? I threw myself into a horn safari about 5.5 years ago…learned a lot about what I want, what I like, what I don't like, what horns/builds make playing certain styles and passagework easier for me, etc. In the process, I just happened to connect with an out-of-state "collector" who had over 70 horns at the time. I’d guess 95% were Bb tpts! I playtested many of them through the process. Some were vintage, some much newer. (Shipping can get expensive after awhile!)

The ones from that collector that got the most of my attention? Van Laar OIRAM and Eclipse Enigma MR (former tuning bell system)…both gold plated horns, not that that really matters here. In addition to excellent intonation, those two horns created a spark in me. Why?

Response!

They responded with the smallest amount of air/effort. Already in my safari, I had learned that Lawler horns did likewise. I've since found Adams and Possegger to be the same, and I would bet Thane to get similar results. The nearly 30yo Straub I picked up in Nov. 2020 also has a powerful sound with lots of life. "Why is this?" I asked. In my journey, I figured that a lot of it had something to do with the way they were assembled. Roy Lawler told me on a visit I paid to his shop in Oct. 2016 that he would, for instance, never spritz water on hot soldered joints to fast cool them, which he explained would create stress in the horn and especially affect response and other playability factors. I later learned from brief “interviews” with Leigh McKinney (Eclipse Trumpets, UK) and Tony Rapacciuolo (AR Resonance, Italy) that they likewise avoided any kind of fast quenching of hot soldered areas during the process of building. All I knew was, experiencing easy response became very important to me. I’m talking about easily being able to start very quiet passages in all registers with the slightest effort.

I should also mention that I bought from another source a Scodwell Standard model, which is sometimes called the “Las Vegas” model, but Tony has clarified in other TH threads that he only calls it his “Standard” model. (It’s another Tony! Tony Scodwell, Toni Possegger, and Tony Rapacciuolo! All great trumpet builders!) Pitch and response are excellent, again, but the most incredible thing to me are the notes above high C. Those notes are just powerful! Very open blow but with a slight resistance to assist. The sound in the middle and low areas of the horn have a warmth and color that would easily fit in a section with Bach trumpets. The upper register matches in tonal profile but has a power and openness to the blow that I’ve found in no other horn.

The other big takeaway with my (two!) Scodwell Bb tpt experiences was Tony’s omission of a brace from the 2nd valve casing to the bell! This will definitely get the blood boiling for some, that it is missing “structural integrity,” et al, but what I observed was a tremendous amount of “life” in the sound and noticeable tangible vibration in my hands! Experts tell us that you lose “projection” when that happens, due to the loss of “energy.” This may be true, but for me, the main times I would play Bb tpt besides my personal practice was in the pit doing musical theatre, where projection is needed for about 8-10 inches to a microphone, so this really wasn’t a concern for me. But even so, other players have tested these horns and not experienced a lack of projection. Scientifically, maybe; from the perception of professional players, no. The tangible experience of vibration in the hands then became an important part of my end game. (I had actually experienced that same vibration feeling with a friend’s raw brass Bach tpt many years before and tucked it away in my mind as a big plus to have in a horn someday.) At this point, I could rank playing characteristics in order of importance for me: tonal profile, intonation, response, slotting, fluidness, and now tangible vibration.

Would I encourage anyone to take the route I took or base their decisions using similar “qualifiers?” No. Never. There were several factors that took me down this path. I’d say that I’m now pretty much done with the safari, except I fear I might come across a horn that plays just a little bit better! Ha! Most of this journey was pre-pandemic, so with the various safeguards in place now, it would be difficult for me to make recommendations to someone to engaged in a horn-hunt today. Someone has mentioned Charlie Melk’s leadpipes. You can always get a few from him, or other sources, and try them taped to your own leadpipe before having one installed. But then you have the issue of the bell, tuning slide, bracing, water keys, and balance in the hands. Where does it stop?! Oh, and mouthpiece matching! Very important! Blueprinting your existing Bach is another possible option. Osmun and J. Landress Brass both provide these services. You might consider these routes to “adjust” your present Bach 43 in addition to buying either a new horn or a solid used horn with contrasting qualities. That way you also always have a backup! Remember the Backup Rule: “Two is one and one is none.” (Great aphorism to quote to a spouse when buying another horn!)

In the end, I’d say my main Bb tpt is a (2020) Eclipse Enigma MYL = medium yellow brass lightweight bell with MAW valves. (But I like so many others!) The idea for MAW valves I got from playtesting a lot of Lotus trumpets from a local distributor/now part-owner. MAW valves may not mean a hill of beans to others, but I could tell some positive changes in smoothness, moving from one note to another…and it was worth the investment. The Enigma is the Eclipse brand changeable leadpipe system model, and I have pretty much all of their leadpipes…10 total! I have learned to adapt my blow in making all of them work(!), which is something I could not do when I first got them. I’m guessing players usually end up finding a leadpipe that is ideal for most of their playing, and they just stay with it. I will occasionally switch to a different pipe for a certain sound I want or just to change things up in my practice, so that I don’t get “locked into” a narrow approach to playing. I change to other mouthpieces and horns for similar reasons. Some would prefer to get locked in to a certain blow and stay there, and I get that. It’s safe and predictable in that place. I, however, like variety and frequent challenges. It helps me to maintain more sensitivity to the amount (and kind) of energy I put into my blow, and it keeps me out of playing ruts, if that makes sense. I will say that when using the same leadpipe, it is difficult to tell the difference in sound between my two Eclipse B-flat trumpets: (2018) Enigma MR (medium red brass bell) and (2020) Enigma MYL with MAW valves. Both of these are great horns!

Then after all of this (as well as cornet, C/Eb/piccolo tpts, and flugel safaris!), I connected with yet another older gentleman selling his small collection, who had a 2002 Bach 43* (lightweight) in mint condition that he guaranteed I would love. What did I do? I believed him and bought it. Was he right? Yes, he was! I could tell that I had missed that “something special” in the sound of a Bach tpt., and any stress in that horn from manufacturing had dissipated, so the response was excellent. You could say that I’ve come full circle!

If I didn’t have the horns that I have, I’d be seriously interested in the two you mentioned: Adams A1 Gen II and their A4 LT!!!…oh, and the Edwards X-13 for contrast! I got to bring an X-13 home for a day from a local music store last summer…the very positive reviews on that horn are very much deserved! Love the large wrap and playability! Not sure if it would make the best lead tpt for you, though. Maybe.

Oh, and remember how I mentioned that Tony Scodwell’s Standard Bb tpt did not have a brace from the 2nd valve casing to the bell? Well, I have since had custom horns built that way (including my Eclipse tpts), and on some used horns, had the brace removed…and I can feel that tangible vibration, which I like!
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markag
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2022 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dstpt, thank you for the lengthy reply. I wish I could have the opportunity to visit and try out as many horns as you have, but I don't think I'll quite get to play that many.

In the near term, I'm thinking about trying a M/K tuning slide to see if it can make a subtle change to my current horn in feel and sound. Long term, I may still go on a trumpet safari, if nothing else, just to find something different and more specialized / unique to add to my small trumpet collection. My LR43 Strad is the only Pro trumpet I own currently, but I do have an older intermediate trumpet from back in my college marching band days that could fill in in a pinch, it's just difficult to play because of the resistance, and I can't get it to sing over the band in the same way that I can currently.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 4:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

markag wrote:
In the near term, I'm thinking about trying a M/K tuning slide to see if it can make a subtle change to my current horn in feel and sound.


It will, but MK makes a lot of different options. What change are you looking for it to make?
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 7:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:
markag wrote:
In the near term, I'm thinking about trying a M/K tuning slide to see if it can make a subtle change to my current horn in feel and sound.


It will, but MK makes a lot of different options. What change are you looking for it to make?


Leave that choice to the experts. What kind of slide depends on the construction of your present horn and what kind of slide it's made for. Additionally, M/K has several different metals as well as three crook shaped sizes and whether or not you should have a post built on it.

Contact M/K directly and tell them what you have and what you want.
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Dayton
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 7:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
In the near term, I'm thinking about trying a M/K tuning slide to see if it can make a subtle change to my current horn in feel and sound.


M/K is terrific to work with, and their slides are very high quality. I've had them make me several slides over the years, and have consistently been pleased with the results. Good luck!
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