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TiredChops
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Joined: 17 Nov 2005
Posts: 242
Location: USA
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 Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2022 9:36 am Post subject: Bach Commercial - Round slide vs D slide |
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Hi all,
I've been playing a ML silver Bach Commercial for about a year now and I love the horn.
When I got it I chose the rounded tuning slide, but lately I've been playing the D shaped slide.
I feel that the D shaped slide has a little more resistance (which I like), it slots better, and it takes some of the edge off the sound ( which can be good or bad depending on what your playing)
I'm curious, if you've played both setups do you have the same opinion of each slide ? |
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Bethmike
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Joined: 21 Jan 2020
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Location: NW of ORD
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| Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2022 9:43 am Post subject: |
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I have a 180S37 ML. Came with the square. After a couple of years of use I bought a MK Round to try something new. I decided I really liked the resistance and slotting of the square. Just felt more secure all around for me. FWIW I am a hobbyist (pretty good actually), but not a pro or even an amateur.
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shofarguy
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Sep 2007
Posts: 7010
Location: AZ
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| Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2022 9:58 am Post subject: Re: Bach Commercial - Round slide vs D slide |
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| TiredChops wrote: | Hi all,
I've been playing a ML silver Bach Commercial for about a year now and I love the horn.
When I got it I chose the rounded tuning slide, but lately I've been playing the D shaped slide.
I feel that the D shaped slide has a little more resistance (which I like), it slots better, and it takes some of the edge off the sound ( which can be good or bad depending on what your playing)
I'm curious, if you've played both setups do you have the same opinion of each slide ? |
The single radius slide usually gives a trumpet a more lyrical quality (i.e. looser slots, more pitch flexibility) compared to the D shape or square (tighter radii than the D) shape. Normally, it also has fewer high frequencies and is less brilliant than the other slides, but it may not sound that way behind the bell. If you have a second set of ears around, have them tell you how each slide sounds to them.
Changes like a tuning slide may shift what I call the "center of sound" in the horn. If that center is inside the bell and near the player's ears, the horn will sound quite brilliant to the player, but dark to the listener. The opposite is also true. If the center of sound happens near or even beyond the end of the bell, the horn will sound bright to the listener, but might sound dark or even muddy to the player.
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Brian A. Douglas
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper
There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds. |
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kehaulani
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003
Posts: 9008
Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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| Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2022 10:28 am Post subject: Re: Bach Commercial - Round slide vs D slide |
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| TiredChops wrote: | I feel that the D shaped slide has a little more resistance (which I like), it slots better, and it takes some of the edge off the sound . .
I'm curious, if you've played both setups do you have the same opinion of each slide ? |
Same horn (Lack. not Silver), same results.
If you're looking to experiment, those two slides have no brace. According to M/K Drawing, using a Bronze D slide with a brace also will get it a little more in the direction of a Bach 180/190-37.
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Last edited by kehaulani on Mon Jan 24, 2022 12:12 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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cbtj51
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Nov 2015
Posts: 725
Location: SE US
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| Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2022 11:31 am Post subject: Re: Bach Commercial - Round slide vs D slide |
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| shofarguy wrote: |
The single radius slide usually gives a trumpet a more lyrical quality (i.e. looser slots, more pitch flexibility) compared to the D shape or square (tighter radii than the D) shape. |
I have a Bach NY7 with the old school tighter wrap, hence a noticeably less "square" shape than later Bach editions, not as round as the single radius, but seemingly unique in the current Bach lineup (the 180 series slides and at least 1 Mt. Vernon slide do not fit the NY7 from my limited trial. Have not tried a 190 series slide). The 7 leadpipe with the longer receiver paired with the *7 bell and french bead apparently have a unique effect (different sound profile many Bach Strads, no disrespect to the "Bach" sound). Just wondering how that rounder D slide impacts the sound on both sides of the bell, if at all. The NY7 as a whole is a different horn than anything else in my experience, which is what attracted me in the first place. Thoughts?
Mike
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zaferis
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Joined: 03 Nov 2011
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Location: Beavercreek, OH
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| Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2022 12:26 pm Post subject: |
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I've had my Bach Commercial for a few years... mostly I settled into the rounded tuning slide, but fairly recently I've switched to the "D" shaped slide - like you I like a the slightly added resistance, but I've been more recently playing in a small combo.. Last night in a big band setting, I think I would have preferred the rounded slide. Actually swapped out today.
More free on the top, and more of the "commercial" sound that I'm after with this instrument.
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shofarguy
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Sep 2007
Posts: 7010
Location: AZ
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| Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2022 1:15 pm Post subject: Re: Bach Commercial - Round slide vs D slide |
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| cbtj51 wrote: | | shofarguy wrote: |
The single radius slide usually gives a trumpet a more lyrical quality (i.e. looser slots, more pitch flexibility) compared to the D shape or square (tighter radii than the D) shape. |
I have a Bach NY7 with the old school tighter wrap, hence a noticeably less "square" shape than later Bach editions, not as round as the single radius, but seemingly unique in the current Bach lineup (the 180 series slides and at least 1 Mt. Vernon slide do not fit the NY7 from my limited trial. Have not tried a 190 series slide). The 7 leadpipe with the longer receiver paired with the *7 bell and french bead apparently have a unique effect (different sound profile many Bach Strads, no disrespect to the "Bach" sound). Just wondering how that rounder D slide impacts the sound on both sides of the bell, if at all. The NY7 as a whole is a different horn than anything else in my experience, which is what attracted me in the first place. Thoughts?
Mike |
I've played two Bach 7/7s. One was from 1930, gold plated, excellent+ condition and part of someone's collection being sold at Ferguson Music in La Crescenta, CA. It was AWESOME! I've also played the large bore production version from the 2000s. It was fantastic, too. Gutsy sound with loads of deep core and brilliant overtones.
Both vintages played like my 5X Benge, but maybe better. They were NOT the stereotypical 180/37 with its stuffiness and quirky intonation. (Okay guys, remember that I'm a Benge guy and compared to my 5X the Bach 37 IS quirky) If I needed a small combo or jazz solo horn, the 7/7 would be at or near the top of my list. All it needs is a forward slanted 2nd valve tube!
As far as what a slide might do to any given horn, I don't think anyone can say. It changes with each instrument and each slide. No two of anything are ever exactly the same. What I mean is, the basic architecture tends to give a general result, but how that specifically affects sound and feel of your individual horn is going to be unique.
On a couple of different occasions, I was at Flip Oakes' shop and listened as he swapped out the tuning slides of two or three WT trumpets. Each slide produced its own affect in all the trumpets. Each slide produced a different effect compared to the other slides. Not every slide worked well with every trumpet. Keep in mind that these were all the same spec #1 braced slides that were standard on all FO Bb trumpets. I had no idea how individual such pieces could be, but they certainly are.
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Brian A. Douglas
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper
There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds. |
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cbtj51
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Nov 2015
Posts: 725
Location: SE US
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| Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2022 3:23 pm Post subject: Re: Bach Commercial - Round slide vs D slide |
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| shofarguy wrote: |
I've played two Bach 7/7s. One was from 1930, gold plated, excellent+ condition and part of someone's collection being sold at Ferguson Music in La Crescenta, CA. It was AWESOME! I've also played the large bore production version from the 2000s. It was fantastic, too. Gutsy sound with loads of deep core and brilliant overtones. |
Interesting that Bach would revive this setup from time to time. I was hooked almost instantly! Your sound analysis is very consistent with my experience regarding the 2016 version.
| shofarguy wrote: | | Both vintages played like my 5X Benge, but maybe better. They were NOT the stereotypical 180/37 with its stuffiness and quirky intonation. (Okay guys, remember that I'm a Benge guy and compared to my 5X the Bach 37 IS quirky) If I needed a small combo or jazz solo horn, the 7/7 would be at or near the top of my list. All it needs is a forward slanted 2nd valve tube! |
I really had not considered this relationship before, but I knew that my own Benge 5X presented something unique while testing against other new Benge ML 3X and MLP 3X examples in 1971. That's why I bought the 5X way back then.
Forward slanted 2nd valve tube!!! 
| shofarguy wrote: | | As far as what a slide might do to any given horn, I don't think anyone can say. |
I have considered a round slide fabrication from M&K for my NY7 for a while, hence my attraction to this thread! Of course that would be a custom item. If I can justify the cost and identify a need with the end result remaining a question mark, that could be in my near future! I'll post if that happens!
Kindest regards,
Mike
Addendum: After pricing plus the unknown end result, I'm not going to move forward on this.
Mike
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'71 LA Benge 5X Bb
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'76 Bach CL 229/25A C
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'00 Bach 184 Cornet
'02 Yamaha 8335RGS
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Last edited by cbtj51 on Thu Jan 27, 2022 12:48 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Lawler Bb
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Joined: 27 Jan 2002
Posts: 1140
Location: Milwaukee, WI
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| Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2022 11:56 am Post subject: Re: Bach Commercial - Round slide vs D slide |
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| TiredChops wrote: | Hi all,
I've been playing a ML silver Bach Commercial for about a year now and I love the horn.
When I got it I chose the rounded tuning slide, but lately I've been playing the D shaped slide.
I feel that the D shaped slide has a little more resistance (which I like), it slots better, and it takes some of the edge off the sound ( which can be good or bad depending on what your playing)
I'm curious, if you've played both setups do you have the same opinion of each slide ? |
When I had a Bach Commercial I had close to the same experience. The D slide had more resistance, better/clearer articulation, tighter slotting, and more brilliance. The rounded slide could still get plenty bright, but I found I really had to play hard to get the same amount of zing as the D slide. My rounded slide collected dust.
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