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SMrtn
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Joined: 29 Oct 2014
Posts: 367
Location: Spain

PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2022 7:21 pm    Post subject: Wedge Reply with quote

I'm starting to suspect that my mpc choices have been less than informed. I've stuck it out with first, Schilke, then Curry, then, a Lotus I bought fairly recently. You know, looking for the ultimate fit. It isn't happening.

I like the sound/tone I'm getting with the Lotus piece the best, but it's just like all the other pieces in that it is not comfortable. Can't get a good lip to piece position that doesn't start to flake out on me after fifteen minutes or so and becomes uncomfortable and then I start to struggle somewhat.

Okay, and so I went to the dentist just recently who did a major inspection of my choppers, which are in good condish thanks for asking. My dentist though, casually informed me I have a mild overbite. I knew this already, but then it hit me that this fact may well be the cause of my mpc issues.

To that end, I'm hoping that a Wedge mpc might be a solution. Would I be right in thinking that this might be the case?

Many thanks fellow trumpeteers.
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etc-etc
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 19 Jan 2008
Posts: 6157

PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2022 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Using the Wedge mouthpiece is a matter of personal preference.

However, pushing forward the lower jaw to match the bite of upper and lower teeth during playing should be helpful.
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stumac
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Joined: 19 Nov 2008
Posts: 696
Location: Flinders, Australia

PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2022 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have played a Wedge 3CC in stainless Steel for the past 10 years, from time to time I will try others but always come back to the Wedge.

I also have an over bite with a full upper denture as well.

Regards, Stuart.
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stumac
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Joined: 19 Nov 2008
Posts: 696
Location: Flinders, Australia

PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2022 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have played a Wedge 3CC in stainless Steel for the past 10 years, from time to time I will try others but always come back to the Wedge.

I also have an over bite with a full upper denture as well.

Regards, Stuart.
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Kumara999
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Joined: 11 Mar 2019
Posts: 137
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada

PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2022 4:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can book a consult with DR. Dave free of charge - he is super helpful and does not push his product at you if he feels its not right for you. Great guy.
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Divitt Trumpets
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Joined: 11 Aug 2015
Posts: 519
Location: Toronto

PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2022 5:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I play a wedge with a 10° angle on the rim to correct for my overbite. It works great!
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zaferis
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Joined: 03 Nov 2011
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Location: Beavercreek, OH

PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2022 6:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't most people have a slight overbite naturally?
..One thing to remember is that having a slight overbite is normal because the shape of the human skull naturally allows for the upper teeth to extend beyond the lower teeth... -15 second google search..


Open the jaw slighly and push your lower jaw forward to vertically line up your teeth making a flat-ish support area to work from.

The mouthpiece won't solve embouchure issues, I'l go out on the limb and say the issues you're having stem from faulty application not mouthpiece selection.
A well fit mouthpiece, will help you consistently produce the tone, articulation quality, and range, throughout the day and over a span of time.
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JayKosta
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Joined: 24 Dec 2018
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Location: Endwell NY USA

PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2022 6:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

zaferis wrote:
... Open the jaw slighly and push your lower jaw forward to vertically line up your teeth making a flat-ish support area to work from. ...

-----------------------------
As above!

Rim pressure on the lower lip and teeth needs to be used and controlled. Having complete vertical line-up is not necessary - but you need to find the amount of lower lip pressure and line-up that works for you.

Lower lip rim pressure can also transfer pressure off of the upper lip, and that can allow the upper lip to have more ability to vibrate.
It's BAD to do things that prevent lip vibration or air flow. You need to develop the skill and technique to achieve vibrations that are activated by air flow.

You might also notice that your air flow seems to not be 'straight into' mouthpiece - that's ok , again you need to find what works. The direction of the air flow and your lip positioning affects what precise area of lip tissue vibrates - and you need to find the best combination.
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SMrtn
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Joined: 29 Oct 2014
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Location: Spain

PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2022 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My takeaway so far is that a different piece - yet again, may not be the solution to this very annoying ongoing problem, and that re-adjusting aspects of my physiology that can be re-adjusted may help. Although a new piece can't hurt I guess, but anyways.
I'd never thought about trying to change the position of my lower jaw so there's something I can experiment with.

@JayKosta - "You might also notice that your air flow seems to not be 'straight into' mouthpiece - that's ok , again you need to find what works. The direction of the air flow and your lip positioning affects what precise area of lip tissue vibrates - and you need to find the best combination." - This resonates with me. I definitely do not feel that my air flow is directed straight into the piece. Thanks for bringing this aspect to my attention. It's as if it's muffled occasionally, or restricted by the positioning I've used with the mpc.

I don't use much pressure at all, I'm very aware of that, but not having noticed that my overbite is causing a lack of comfortable and proper seal has subconsciously caused a battle to occur, and I was losing the fight.
To not be too nerdy, but quoting Sun Tzu's The Art of War, which I've actually read, is this - The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.

Feeling pretty confident I can get a solution without having to shell out for yet another piece. Just want to thank everyone who has posted here.
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Andy Cooper
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Joined: 15 Nov 2001
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Location: Terre Haute, IN USA

PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2022 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The question - would a Wedge mouthpiece help?
Maybe.
It depends on how your present mouthpieces are uncomfortable.

An overbite can contribute to excessive pressure at the 10:00 and 2:00 positions on your upper lip. If you can consistently push your lower jaw out to line up a little straighter - that could take care of the problem.

A mouthpiece with a sharper outside rim can help with this because it makes it uncomfortable to roll the mouthpiece down following the overbite.

A more rounded outside rim feels more comfortable but encourages your overbite.
Compare a Schilke 15B4 to a Bach 3B.

https://www.trumpet.cloud/mpc/

The Wedges I have tried are uncomfortable if you try to roll them down to follow your overbite. When played properly, they take the pressure away from the 10:00 and 2:00 positions and transfer all pressure to the upper and lower lip and encourage a better jaw position.

While I don't use the Wedge, the mouthpiece rim I use accomplishes all of the above. (Neill Sanders)
Last time I checked, the Wedge was available in an affordable Delron version in different sizes. They used to have a return policy.
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Divitt Trumpets
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Joined: 11 Aug 2015
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Location: Toronto

PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 6:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

zaferis wrote:


Open the jaw slighly and push your lower jaw forward to vertically line up your teeth making a flat-ish support area to work from.


The issue is that pushing the jaw forward like that can cause TMJ.
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zaferis
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Joined: 03 Nov 2011
Posts: 2309
Location: Beavercreek, OH

PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Divitt Trumpets wrote:
zaferis wrote:


Open the jaw slighly and push your lower jaw forward to vertically line up your teeth making a flat-ish support area to work from.


The issue is that pushing the jaw forward like that can cause TMJ.


I think this is faulty logic.. you make the same move to bite something, to tear with your front teeth - not an unatural move. Unless you have an extreme overbite, an unatural tooth or jaw structure, this should not be a problem. I've been around hundreds if not thousands of trumpeters - never hear anyone make this correlation. My understanding is that TMJ is often associated with jaw clentching and/or injury.
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JayKosta
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Joined: 24 Dec 2018
Posts: 3275
Location: Endwell NY USA

PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SMrtn wrote:
... I don't use much pressure at all, I'm very aware of that, but not having noticed that my overbite is causing a lack of comfortable and proper seal has subconsciously caused a battle to occur, and I was losing the fight. ...

---------------------------------
Perhaps you are trying to use too little rim pressure (combined upper & lower), some pressure is necessary for air sealing, helps with maintaining mpc placement, and aids in establishing and controlling lip position.

The problem with 'too much pressure' is that it can cause pain, injury, inflexible lips, etc. Use enough pressure to allow proper functioning of the embouchure.

You can find examples about 'no pressure' playing, but most of those are 'exercises' to train embouchure strength and control - not for actual playing.
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
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patdublc
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Joined: 02 Jun 2006
Posts: 1049
Location: Salisbury, MD

PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I second the idea of consulting with Dr. Dave. He's very helpful and has a great return policy. You really have nothing to lose.
You can search here and find several places where I bought the first Wedge that Dave ever sold. I've changed models a couple of times as he had continued to innovate the product line but I've been with him since the beginning.
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Play Wedge Mouthpieces by Dr. Dave exclusively.
Experiment with LOTS of horn makes and models.
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Divitt Trumpets
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 11 Aug 2015
Posts: 519
Location: Toronto

PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

zaferis wrote:
Divitt Trumpets wrote:
zaferis wrote:


Open the jaw slighly and push your lower jaw forward to vertically line up your teeth making a flat-ish support area to work from.


The issue is that pushing the jaw forward like that can cause TMJ.


I think this is faulty logic.. you make the same move to bite something, to tear with your front teeth - not an unatural move. Unless you have an extreme overbite, an unatural tooth or jaw structure, this should not be a problem. I've been around hundreds if not thousands of trumpeters - never hear anyone make this correlation. My understanding is that TMJ is often associated with jaw clentching and/or injury.


Biting something isn't a prolonged action the way pushing the jaw forwards to play is.
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Andy Cooper
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Joined: 15 Nov 2001
Posts: 1803
Location: Terre Haute, IN USA

PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

zaferis wrote:
Divitt Trumpets wrote:
zaferis wrote:


Open the jaw slighly and push your lower jaw forward to vertically line up your teeth making a flat-ish support area to work from.


The issue is that pushing the jaw forward like that can cause TMJ.


I think this is faulty logic.. you make the same move to bite something, to tear with your front teeth - not an unatural move. Unless you have an extreme overbite, an unatural tooth or jaw structure, this should not be a problem. I've been around hundreds if not thousands of trumpeters - never hear anyone make this correlation. My understanding is that TMJ is often associated with jaw clentching and/or injury.


I made the transition years ago and have not experience TMJ. Doesn't mean that it could not happen to others. There is a down side - my "at rest" jaw position when not playing is more forward than it was. I always notice that my bottom teeth are touching just inside my top front teeth. It's perhaps a tad annoying at times. But it's that or switch to euphonium.
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SMrtn
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Joined: 29 Oct 2014
Posts: 367
Location: Spain

PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like this discussion. It's very informative and helps me, and possibly others having same or similar issues, to go through a process of elimination and pinpoint the seat of the problem. The sound I produce has improved tremendously of late, simply by not struggling with my face musculature when I apply mpc to lips. Trumpet Herald is an excellent resource.

@Andy Cooper, thanks for the info and the link.

So this idea of pushing my bottom jaw forward slightly to compensate, sounded at first blush to be a very reasonable solution and possibility, but having tried that for a day or two now, it has quickly reached its use by date. My physiology will not allow it without the possibility of damaging back teeth if I continue. Something my dentist said - 'you have an unusual bite'. To which I said 'my victims tell me the same thing'. jk.
Ultimately, I want to play as close to a natural position and approach as I possibly can for longevity' sake. Who needs the possibility of dealing with even minor physiology issues.

So, I'm thinking that I am going to approach this from the mpc angle, so to speak, and check out a Wedge mpc. Make an appt or there may be an off the shelf I can use. It's a new piece so if nothing else it'll be novel ... for a while. I'm confident I can solve this issue one way or the other, and with the abundance of information on this site and others, it's really just a matter of time.
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Andy Cooper
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Joined: 15 Nov 2001
Posts: 1803
Location: Terre Haute, IN USA

PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2022 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SMrtn wrote:

Ultimately, I want to play as close to a natural position and approach as I possibly can for longevity' sake. Who needs the possibility of dealing with even minor physiology issues.

So, I'm thinking that I am going to approach this from the mpc angle, so to speak, and check out a Wedge mpc. Make an appt or there may be an off the shelf I can use. It's a new piece so if nothing else it'll be novel ... for a while. I'm confident I can solve this issue one way or the other, and with the abundance of information on this site and others, it's really just a matter of time.


https://wedgemouthpiece.com/trumpet-fitting

Check out the "Angled Rim" possibility along with the standard rim.

One last thought - the Kelly Pro - plastic mouthpiece. It's on the large side with an odd rim. Nice thing about the plastic - with some 2000 grit sandpaper, you can reshape it a little. It's cheap and plays a lot better than it should.
https://kellymouthpieces.com/kmtrumpet/index.asp
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