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Valve wear



 
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AndyDavids
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2022 8:19 am    Post subject: Valve wear Reply with quote

Two-part question: (did a search and didn't quite find what I'm looking for)

1) On average, if a horn is played every day for at least a few hours- how long
do you think brand new valves will last before a replate is necessary?

2) Do you think replated valves on a used horn last about as long or not vs
originals?

I'd like your opinions before I get into specifics of why I'm asking...much appreciated!

Andy
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yourbrass
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2022 8:38 am    Post subject: Re: Valve wear Reply with quote

AndyDavids wrote:
Two-part question: (did a search and didn't quite find what I'm looking for)

1) On average, if a horn is played every day for at least a few hours- how long
do you think brand new valves will last before a replate is necessary?
With daily oiling and monthly cleaning, many years.

2) Do you think replated valves on a used horn last about as long or not vs
originals?
Properly done, refitted valves are like the best new valves, such as Getzen.

I'd like your opinions before I get into specifics of why I'm asking...much appreciated!

Andy

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Dayton
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2022 8:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Exactly what yourbrass said. I'd add that if you brush/floss your teeth before playing and swab out your leadpipe and main tuning slide when you are done, your entire horn will last a long, long time, not just your valves.
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etc-etc
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2022 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brushing teeth before playing and daily cleaning of the horn will also help to prevent growth of bacteria and fungi in the horn's tubing.
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Yamahaguy
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2022 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To be honest, it's been many, many years since I've used just one horn...

Going back to high school and college I had a new Strad that lasted the entire
time and was just fine as far as I knew- at least 8-10 years with no issues

As for the 2nd question, I guess it also may depend on who does the work.
I have had more than a few horns worked on by different techs, and only one
I noticed was a little sluggish after some time...but I think that could be more
a factor of underuse rather than over?
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lipshurt
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2022 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you use a good oil, that is maybe a bit thicker than it is fast, your valves will last a really long time, like 15 years of constant technical studies.

That of course is predicated on the idea that you are not squeezing the casing, and not pushing the valves to one side when you are playing.
Both hands relaxed and easy treatment will about make it last basically forever.

What does valves in quick are:

Pressure from the case, or from rough handling that distorts the valve tubes, like pushing the second slide and making the casing egg shaped. Then the valve wears out real quick.

Lapping the valves when they get problematic. That is something that sometimes you simply have to do, but after, your valves are like 10 years more worn out.

Not oiling valves, or using spit for valve oil. People do that. They just play until there is some water in the horn and then the valves can work pretty good. People commonal make comments like “i never really need to oil my valves…they always just work” . That might be true but there are wearing out faster becuase of it.

Brand new horns that still have lapping compound or buffing compound in the tubes. If your horn was making black stuff on your valves for a few weeks when new, that’s pretty bad. I had a conn vintage one that I had ultrasonic cleaned and it still was making black valve oil a year later. Worked great. Two years in I sent it to Anderson for a valve refit. Good horn though. Then it was stolen.

A good refit by someone like Anderson (who no longer does it) is as good as any valve and better than most. Especially if they clean it right afterwards.
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Seymor B Fudd
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2022 5:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your question made me think of my old King Super 20 Symphony DB. I bought it 1970 and played regurlarly on it up to about two years ago.
The valves look like new! But the compression (as measured by pressing down valve 3 after I pulled out/in 3rd valve slide wanting to hear a distinct pop) "ain´t what it used to be. No "pop" and no problems when pulling out the slide. In contrast to my new RC - difficult to pull out, distinct "pop".

I have, from the very beginning been using oil frequently; Al Cass most of the time, then Hetman. I was told that US horns require a lot of oiling.
But this should apply to every horn. My old Getzen Eterna Bb cornet (1974-2013) also had perfect valves, equally often becoming oiled and produced with me behind a lot more notes(Brass Band front row).

So, like a piston engine horn valves do need the best lubricants available!

The quality of valves, the alloys used, most certainly will differ within the horn market. I.e Getzen valves seem very appreciated.

So returning to the orginal question I don´t think that you can give a straight answer. More of "it depends..." . On the quality, the owner´s way of taking care of the horn etc etc.
On the other hand - the King served me well for more than 30 years.
Still a fantastic horn - but the RC gives me more "help", seems more resonant today.

The "alloy science" has moved forward, as has the "ability to lessen the tolerances. Compare with cars! My first Austin Mini Cooper (1965) drank 5 litres of oil after 50000 kilometers.
A Subaru Outback with the 6 cyl boxer belonging to my dealer has 500000 kilometers on the odometer, yet doesn´t need refilling between the changes; Ín fact new discs, new brake pads are the only replacments).
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King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
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Last edited by Seymor B Fudd on Wed Jan 26, 2022 9:15 am; edited 1 time in total
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AndyDavids
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2022 8:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Many great responses, thank you! Apparently, I still have much to learn...especially about daily cleaning and oils.
I am referring to my 7-year old Schilke and a used Strad I came across...this response pretty much nailed it for me,
it's most likely due to my negligence. But looking forward to still playing these for many years to come!

Seymor B Fudd wrote:
The valves look like new! But the compression (as measured by pressing down valve 3 after I pulled out/in 3rd valve slide wanting to hear a distinct pop) "ain´t what it used to be.

<and>

The "alloy science" has moved forward, as has the "ability to lessen the tolerances.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2022 8:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, it just depends on the horn's original valve quality and how they're maintained. Mine have never been a problem, whether they were already used or new. So, they all lasted for decades, at a minimum.

Regarding flossing, mouth rinsing and particular hygiene routines, unless I'd been eating popcorn or rice, foods that leave small particles in your mouth, I have never routinely done that for half a century. One man's caution is another man's anal retentive. Do what you're most comfortable with but don't feel negligent if you don't.
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dstpt
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2022 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have had similar issues with some new horns...with Bach, CarolBrass, Adams, and even MAW valves, so I feel your pain. Crazy, I know. Just lucky on my end, I guess. I've bought more new horns with no issues, though, just FYI. After watching a brass tech or two, I learned to lap valves on my own. I tried the renowned Ferree's Lapping Compound, but that's a bear to get out. After awhile I bought some inexpensive lapping compound from eBay, but even with lighter compound, I have had to clean and rinse many times...but I finally get these horns up and running. You never know if a tiny particle gets inside during something as simple as oiling, too, so it could be manufacturer or "driver" error. I know that Adams and Meinlschmidt (who makes MAW valves) use very close tolerances, and there can be a break-in period.

When lapping I disassemble the valve completely, removing springs, guides, felts, tops, and then reassemble just the valve stem and top in order to move the valve in and out of the casing. There will be those who will say a slight turning of the valve in the casing should not hurt, whereas, others who will say it should only be in the same “position” as each valve will be when in place with the guide. Some also lap from the lower side of the casing. I’ve tried all and had success with each technique, although again, some will have strong feelings about how this should be done. Caveat emptor.

I use the following:

SWAB-ITS .22cal/5.56mm Pull-Thru Gun Cleaning Bore-Whips Pull Through Cleaning Swabs (from Amazon for ~$12 for three). These will reach down the bell all the way through the connecting "tube" between valves 1 & 2. You can easily reach between valves 2 & 3 by going down the lower 3rd slide. This is true for many manufactures (CB, for sure), but not all, of course. To clean these in between cycles, I rub one swab end against another with dishwashing liquid (DWL).

I use 99% isopropyl alcohol on each swab. (Be sure not to reinsert a used swab into the bottle of alcohol...the bottle cap works great!) Pour some in a small container, instead, and work from that and don't pour any remainder back into the bottle, of course, to avoid contamination. I got four large bottles from Amazon for ~$36 nearly two years ago and am only on the 2nd bottle. I could not find it in the local stores during the pandemic. You could probably use 70% or 91%, but someone more "science-y" could explain to all of us the pros and cons. Maybe Naptha or some other solvent or degreaser would be even better. I'm no expert with any of this. After all of this, I do lots of washing with DWL & rinsing in very warm water.

Yesterday, I was cleaning a horn and wanted to make the valves look new. I always thoroughly “clean” each valve with DWL and a bottle brush through each port, but this time, instead of soaking in ⅔ white vinegar and ⅓ DWL, which takes sometimes over an hour soak, I used Super Clean (degreaser) in a small ultrasonic machine for jewelry (Amazon, $25). After 180 seconds (3 minutes), they were sparkly clean, so THAT will be my method from now on! I got that large 1-gal. bottle of Super Clean from The Home Depot awhile back for about $3.00. It comes in a purple bottle. (Someone will now probably tell me that I’ve ruined that horn…so, caveat emptor.) I then washed them throughly with DWL and very warm water.

I think most techs would say that the normal process with a new horn should be to remove each valve daily, wipe down (maybe with alcohol or a degreaser) on a lint-free cloth, wipe out each valve casing with a brass cleaning rod and clean lint-free cloth or fresh paper towel and alcohol/degreaser, and apply new oil to the casing and valve liberally. The break-in period on the horns with close tolerances could be as much as a few weeks, unfortunately, but that has not been the norm for me…just those “special occasions” when the universe is telling me I wasn’t holding my mouth right in the first place!

[Edit: added bottle cap comment.]


Last edited by dstpt on Sat Jan 29, 2022 11:57 am; edited 1 time in total
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Yamahaguy
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dstpt wrote:
I have had similar issues with some new horns...with Bach, CarolBrass, Adams, and even MAW valves, so I feel your pain.
-------------
There will be those who will say a slight turning of the valve in the casing should not hurt, whereas, others who will say it should only be in the same “position” as each valve will be when in place with the guide. Some also lap from the lower side of the casing. I’ve tried all and had success with each technique, although again, some will have strong feelings about how this should be done. Caveat emptor.
+1 on both points!
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yourbrass
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2022 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I lap valves about 80% less than I used to, because most casing problems can be rounded with the right tools, which is always my first preference.
That being said, if you must do it yourself, 1000 grit or finer is preferred, and if that doesn't do it, you have another problem.
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BrassBells
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2022 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

With most quality modern horns, you'll probably get 20+ years of no issues with proper oiling and cleanings. With a used or vintage horn, it's anybody's bet as to how the horn was treated.

A good valve re-plate and re-fit done by one of the gurus (i.e. Melk, Metzler, Winans, etc) Is as good as new and will probably feel better.
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2022 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BrassBells wrote:
With most quality modern horns, you'll probably get 20+ years of no issues with proper oiling and cleanings. With a used or vintage horn, it's anybody's bet as to how the horn was treated.

A good valve re-plate and re-fit done by one of the gurus (i.e. Melk, Metzler, Winans, etc) Is as good as new and will probably feel better.

While this may be a good rule of thumb, there are other factors involved than just cleaning and oiling.

For instance a dedicated player who practices for an hour or more daily will see shorter life than will the weekend warrior who seldom practices, when measured in days owned and not hours of use.

Also, the famous test Brett Getzen did comparing monel vs nickel valves shows the piston material makes a big difference. I am sure that the manufacturing process, fitting and alloy quality play into how the valves hold up.
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Manuel de los Campos
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2022 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As a trained laboratorium technician an working as an engineer I just want to say that lapping d.i.y. can lead to shortening the life of your valves, especially if you use a lapping compound that eats away too much of the material of your valves. Be careful! This you have to do when all other options fail like using other brands or kinds of valve oil, cleaning etc.
When I do lapping at home I use whitening toothpaste, a very mild grinding paste as you can imagine. First dismount the valves and rebuild them without the spring, felts and valve guides. Clean the valves and the valve housing with dish washing soap. Rinse with warm water.
Ad the paste (with a few drops of water) and push in the valve straight, pull the valve with a rotating move so there will be not only longitunal scratches, diagonal scratches as well; in the future the valve oil will remain thus longer on the valve so lubrification will remain longer. Continue until you feel that the cylinder wall and the valve move smoothly.
Now wash your instrument from the inside and outside, rebuild with high quality valve oil.
With the right care (use a lot of valve oil and keep your machine clean) the valve section of a quality instrument will last at least two decades.
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