Cornet in the Orchestra

TerryAndreas · Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 1:52 pm Post subject: Cornet in the Orchestra

I was wondering how many of you have played cornet in the orchestra.

If yes, what pieces and how successful has it been?

Have you played Tchaikovsky Ballet's on Cornet?

I've been asked to play one of the Piston parts in Berlioz's Symphonie Fantastique this year and was considering whether to play it on cornet or B flat trumpet.

After much research I've found that although the parts were written for cornets, Berlioz was not keen on their sound and only wrote for them as they could play chromatically, as opposed to only notes within the harmonic series.

Piccolo trumpets sound nothing like the Natural trumpet, so why should we assume that a modern cornet would sound like a 19th Century cornet.

Do I play the Piston part with my Bach Strad Cornet with Wick 5CU mouthpiece or just use my Bflat Strad Trumpet?

Jon Kaplan · Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 3:48 pm Post subject:

Honestly, this is a tricky question.

In many of the major orchestras in the US, players will typically use a modern cornet for these parts - but not necessarily with a very "cornetty" mouthpiece. Speaking for myself, I tend to use a Getzen C Cornet on these kinds of parts (with a Bach 3 or 6 cornet mouthpiece), but have also seen a number of players use the Yamaha 9435 C Cornet (which features a trumpet shank) with something like their standard orchestral trumpet mouthpiece. Whether these combinations produce the historically intended sound is probably difficult to determine, especially considering the supposed reason that the part was written for cornet at all (the use of chromatic pitches with valves).

Modern trumpets have much more conical tubing than the valveless trumpets of that era - you could even argue that in order to achieve the most "authentic" sound, you could perform the cornet parts on a modern trumpet and the trumpet parts on a true natural trumpet. I'm only sort of joking!

In your case, it really depends on the group you're playing with and what you want to do. The music director may have an opinion about this to break a tie, but truthfully these parts are equally playable on both modern trumpets and cornets. Have fun - what a fabulous piece to get to perform!
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Brassnose · Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 6:55 pm Post subject:

Amateur with 40 years of non-cornet experience here so take it with the usual grain of salt. I don’t know if you are talking pro or amateur orchestra but most amateurs probably won’t have a C cornet (rare and expensive and rarely used). However, a Bb cornet may be a little too soft in my opinion - after all the Symphonie Fantastique is in parts quite loud. Maybe an American style long cornet?

Just found this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HgqPpjIH5c. The high brass seems to be a mixture of trumpets and cornets, not sure but I think I even see an Eb cornet …
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Crazy Finn · Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 7:17 pm Post subject:

I've played Lieutenant Kije, Symphonie Fantastique, and maybe Roman Carnival all on cornet with orchestra.

I played all on a Bach 184L cornet with a 3C mouthpiece. I like more true cornet pieces, but when I play them, it's very difficult for me to project the part in any ensemble I've been in - whether in an orchestra section or a brass septet.
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random_abstract · Regular Member Joined: 16 Nov 2013 Posts: 72 Location: USA

Any of you orchestra guys ever just use a C trumpet with a deeper mouthpiece (like a Curry TC) to simulate a cornet on this repertoire?

etc-etc · Heavyweight Member Joined: 19 Jan 2008 Posts: 6184

Stravinsky's Petrouchka 1911: cornet
Stravinsky's Petrouchka 1947: trumpet

Jon Kaplan · Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2022 8:21 am Post subject:

dr_trumpet · Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2022 10:02 am Post subject:

benlewis · Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2022 10:09 am Post subject:

I'll throw in one more topic for this discussion:

doubling pay...

Ben

Gottfried Reiche · Veteran Member Joined: 27 Nov 2013 Posts: 184

I seriously doubt any professional musician would use a cornet only as a double.

The sound and projection are completely different on cornet than trumpet. The reason to use it is for that.

The sound produced is of prime importance, not the "gear" aspect of it.

GR

Andy Cooper · Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2022 12:46 pm Post subject:

A discussion from a few years ago:
https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1565968

The cornet part (was it written for Arban?) does not exist in a vacuum -
Here are PDF scores to get an idea of the projection necessary with the surrounding instrumentation:
http://www.hberlioz.com/Scores/sfantastique.htm

Note the Un Bal part was written for cornet in A... I have the solution.

A BB cornet might lack projection - a trumpet is to trumpety - the Conn Vic 80A cornet with slides pulled to A. (It was designed to play in both A and Bb)

(I now will take cover to escape the flurry of used SpitBalls and empty Al Cass bottles.)

etc-etc · Heavyweight Member Joined: 19 Jan 2008 Posts: 6184

Good idea about the Conn Victor - or, use even older style cornets fitted with separate leadpipes for Bb and A. These instruments would also be a better match for the sound concept of the composers of the time.

dr_trumpet · Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2022 8:09 pm Post subject:

etc-etc · Heavyweight Member Joined: 19 Jan 2008 Posts: 6184

tomterriff · Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2022 10:54 am Post subject:

I am currently playing Piston 1 part on Tchaikovsky's Ballet and am using my Getzen C cornet with a Picket 1-1/2C mouthpiece. This is the same cup I use for orchestral trumpet. IMO the Getzen C is a wonderful horn for orchestral work.

This setup gives a little delicateness to the Neapolitan Dance without detracting from the necessary lightness and precision. It also blends well on the unison passages with Tpt 1 in the earlier dances.

I have also used a cornet on Symphonie Fantastique and like how it contrasts with the trumpet parts.

Play on!
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Irving · Heavyweight Member Joined: 11 Feb 2003 Posts: 1887

Terry, if I were you I would use a trumpet. Simply because you will be competing with the trombones that usually play pretty loud on this piece. It will be more work for you to be able to keep up with them on a cornet. If you have a trumpet, then at least you won't be going to a gunfight armed with a knife.