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Besson 712 International Any good?


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TriumphantTrumpeter
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2022 9:46 am    Post subject: Besson 712 International Any good? Reply with quote

Hi all,

Somewhat on the spur of the moment I leapt on a Besson 712 International which, I am told is from around the late eighties to early nineties. Having bought in haste I am now wondering if I will have to repent at leisure or have I bought a good trumpet.

Anyone with experience of this model of horn and are they good?
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TriumphantTrumpeter
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2022 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looking at some photos of a Kanstul 1504 Trumpet currently for sale here in the UK it looks remarkably similar in design although I gather the Besson was made in Britain. Would there be a relationship with the Kanstul and, if so, is the Kanstul 1504 a trumpet that one might like to play? Hoping that, if it is, then, by extension, I might just have got a really nice horn at a pretty reasonable price.
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etc-etc
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2022 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If it says "Besson USA" on the horn, it was made by Kanstul.
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TriumphantTrumpeter
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2022 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for that, unfortunately I haven't actually got it in my hands yet although I should receive it by Tuesday or thereabouts.

As I understand it, being from a seller in Scotland it is unlikely to be a USA made one. From what little I can discover online Besson's were made in the UK for the European market around that time and by Kanstul for the USA market but I don't know if that meant they were assembled here from parts imported, possibly from the USA or manufactured completely in the UK for the European market. I was hoping that someone might have some experience of the model but I suppose I will know soon enough whether it's a good'un. Certainly from the pictures I have of it, it looks rather shiny if nothing else.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/150491124@N07/51849894347/in/dateposted-public/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/150491124@N07/51851185714/in/dateposted-public/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/150491124@N07/51849894382/in/dateposted-public/
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etc-etc
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2022 1:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good news - I think you have got a Besson trumpet made by B&S (Markneukirchen Germany). It is not exactly the Challenger model (B&S Challenger has bracing near and on the tuning slide) but the similarity is too strong to be accidental.

Check the shape of the valve cap tops and of the first slide finger hook on a B&S Challenger:


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TriumphantTrumpeter
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2022 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for that information. The first valve slide thumb cradle does look very similar as do a lot of the other features on both horns although I note the mouthpiece receiver on the Besson is a different design. I had noticed that the thumb cradle on the Besson was unusually long on the forward side. Would you happen to know what difference is made to the instrument by not having the two braces at the Tuning slide?

I found a pdf document via a link on here that details the history of Boosey and Hawkes and Besson but it doesn't have enough information to identify where specific models were made. I had been under the impression that Besson models for Europe were made at Edgeware Road in London but, according to the pdf document. Due to high manufacturing costs in the UK 'models were made in places where manufacturing was cheaper such as the USA, Germany, Czechoslovakia etc'. I am surprised that the researcher in the document considered USA manufacturing to be cheaper than UK. I would have thought having them made by Kanstul would have been more expensive. From the document I gather that the 700 Series, throughout it's history and wherever it was made, was considered the mid-range where the 600 series was 'Student' and 900 series was 'Professional'.

I am hoping that it's at least as good as my 1950's Besson Westminster and Boosey and Hawkes Regent which, although 'student' models and cost me hardly any money are brilliant players with a really nice sound.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2022 10:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Braces and other equipment mounted on horn (e.g., triggers) impact slotting. Without braces or triggers, slotting is more loose.
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TriumphantTrumpeter
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2022 8:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for that information, I didn't know that.

So does that mean that the player has to be more accurate with blowing but also that the player can 'bend' notes around more readily?
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Tony Scodwell
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2022 9:29 am    Post subject: Besson 262 Reply with quote

I believe this Besson trumpet was made by Kanstul and was intended to be an "intermediate" model. Truth is, it is virtually the same horn that was marketed as the top line pro model, this information from Bruce Silva who was the head of Besson at the time. Bruce has told me that this model was every bit as good as anything in their line-up and Bruce was the lead player for a top military band here in the US. Kanstul made great horns and I wouldn't hesitate to buy this.

Tony Scodwell
www.scodwellusa.com
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TriumphantTrumpeter
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2022 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Tony,

That is very good news as I sort of jumped on this trumpet without really knowing anything about it other than that it looked 'tasty' having discovered it in the inventory of a music shop on the other side of Scotland in Edinburgh. Although it didn't cost me 'Stradivarius' money it still wasn't what I, as a typically financially cautious Scotsman, would call cheap. Hopefully the mailman will be delivering it to me tomorrow or the day after.
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Andy Cooper
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2022 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TriumphantTrumpeter wrote:
Thanks Tony,

That is very good news as I sort of jumped on this trumpet without really knowing anything about it other than that it looked 'tasty' having discovered it in the inventory of a music shop on the other side of Scotland in Edinburgh. Although it didn't cost me 'Stradivarius' money it still wasn't what I, as a typically financially cautious Scotsman, would call cheap. Hopefully the mailman will be delivering it to me tomorrow or the day after.


Looks like a Kanstul valve block. I played on an International many years ago - I thought it to be a nice relatively dark sounding instrument. Reminded me a little of the Olds Ambassador (that's a complement.)
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TriumphantTrumpeter
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2022 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Splendid thank you Andy, very reassuring. Looking forward to getting my hands on it now.

Trumpet picking seems somewhat of a black art in my very limited experience and coming from other instruments such as guitar, Banjo's and Bagpipes where makers and instrument quality seem much more easy to determine even for 'vintage' instruments. It's not made any easier either as it seems that, if I am understanding these things correctly, a particular model name may start as applying to a 'professional' quality instrument and then become used for steadily lower end instruments as time goes on.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2022 2:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Post please the pictures of the bell engraving and of the third valve cluster (you can gray out the last digits of the serial number). Interesting to know where it was made and what other markings does it have.

I have seen once a Kanstul Besson 800 International with the serial number printed using tiny dots. Very much dot-matrix printer style.
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TriumphantTrumpeter
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2022 6:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unfortunately the trumpet hasn't yet arrived although I had hoped it would be here today. Once I receive the trumpet I'll take photos of those areas for you etc-etc.
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TriumphantTrumpeter
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2022 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well the trumpet arrived today.

Now when I opened the case I wasn't sure that I hadn't thrown my loot away as it looked, well, rather brassy and felt pretty light compared to my other trumpets which, admittedly are mainly elderly models. This one isn't a spring chicken either at around thirty years old but it doesn't look it and even the original guarantee card and Boosey and Hawkes silver cloth (still in bag) look factory fresh.

The Bell reads

FB
Besson
International
Boosey and Hawkes
England

Everything below the Besson name is faint and hard to read which worried me but, looking at it all through a magnifier it actually seems sharp but shallow which makes it appear faint.

Now. playing it reveals a horn that is very sweet and smooth to play going easily up to the C above the staff and carrying on beyond. It was blowing it that changed my opinions. The valve piston stroke seems a lot shorter than my old trumpets and valve response is quick and smooth.

Besides the bell engraving and the serial nunber (stamped on the underside of the bell section at the valve block) I cannot find a single mark or number anywhere on the trumpet.

Looking at images of Kanstul trumpets online the one that this resembles closest is the 700 model.

The main thing though is that, while it may be a brassy blonde and not what I am used to in the looks department she sure sings sweet and that, I guess, is the main thing. I think she will be a 'keeper' and if I come across another at a reasonable price I will probably pick it up as a 'spare'.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2022 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you - very interesting!

How is the finish on the pistons (grey with minor vertical streaks)?
Do the pistons have brass or nylon valve guides?

How are the slides? Some Besson 709 and 800 had slides that were a little out of parallel alignment, so that any single leg would slide smoothly, but two legs engaged at once would not.
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TriumphantTrumpeter
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2022 7:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The slides are all smooth and move easily but not loosely.
The pistons are a nice uniform grey with minor vertical minor streaks just as you say.

The valves are top spring with the spring on the outside of the shaft and black circular plastic guides which are keyed to a slot cut in the shaft and another key on the outside to the valve body. This is the type here https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/372143147936?hash=item56a575cba0:g:GPgAAOSw7NNT56XX

The shaft of each valve is marked with the valve number.

Overall I would say that this example has seen very little use at all if any although it has suffered a couple of small insignificant dent's on the bell. I don't know but my sixth sense seems to think it was a demonstrator that has been discovered languishing in a dark corner of the music shop for the last twenty to thirty years.
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guy
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2022 3:35 am    Post subject: Besson International Reply with quote

How did you ended up liking your International? still playing it?
I found my Boosey&Hawkes made Besson International...will post photos later on.
Mainly stumbled onto this thread looking for inspiration to get a valve refit done. Considering the cost, wanted to see if it was worth spending the money.
The instrument looks good but pistons are weathered...(microbor style)

My International has the triggers on 3rd and 1st slides...(3rd slide one a little querky to take appart and re assemble for my old fingers)
I would like anyone to chime in their opinions about this model in particular.
Yay or nay on the valve job

G.
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guy
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2022 6:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is my Besson...any comments would be appreciated
https://imgur.com/sSxUcM1
https://imgur.com/77A0U2B[/img]
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Rogerrr
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2022 7:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

my Besson 2-20 has the same tuning slide issue -- 3rd valve slide seems out of alignment & a bit stiff
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