• FAQ  • Search  • Memberlist  • Usergroups   • Register   • Profile  • Log in to check your private messages  • Log in 

30min/day progress?



 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Comeback Players
View previous topic :: View next topic  

Is 30 minutes/ day enough to make serious tone and technique gains that are performance ready in under a year?
Yes
38%
 38%  [ 8 ]
No
61%
 61%  [ 13 ]
Total Votes : 21

Author Message
darntootn
New Member


Joined: 31 Jan 2022
Posts: 2
Location: Olympia, WA

PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2022 8:31 pm    Post subject: 30min/day progress? Reply with quote

Hi y'all,
Both in person professionals and multiple online sources and forum commenters are conveying to me that I probably can't make a lot of progress if I only practice 30 minutes a day. I'm getting the message that it's ok for maintenance after you've already put in your major hours in the past, but that I won't be able to make any serious gains.

What are y'alls thoughts on this?






Context:
I am a come back player in that I took a 7 year break from trumpet after k-12. In grade school, I was taught the wrong embouchure (This was officially confirmed by my band instructor and multiple big name instructors in town). I recently heard that the private lesson instructor has since quit trumpet after years of playing because his embouchure technique was too messed up to keep going.

Because trumpet has been so uncomfortable for me to play most of my life, I didn't really start practicing super regularly at all until... geeze... maybe this year, really. But I've still made a ton of progress over the past five years just playing in bands and not correcting my embouchere issue. I haven't been able to play anything above a "D" without it sounding like a dying cat, but within that very limited range I've developed pretty functional improv and songwriting and performing skills that large crowds seem to enjoy, so I know it's not impossible to make ANY progress at ALL with 30min/day or less on average.

BUT-- now that I'm actually restructuring my entire embouchure, I'm running into the feeling that maybe 30min/day, even staying really regular with my daily practice, isn't really enough to make progress... Now that I'm working with "new shoes" as a fellow trumpeter referred to my new embouchure, and still building the shoes... it's like I'm learning to walk all over again.

If I just want to learn to walk again but in a more sustainable way, 30min seems to be ok, and I feel like I'm uncovering bits of the range-building, bell-tone embouchure puzzle every day. But all my previous skills are trashed. I never used to have issues hitting notes, but now I miss them all the time. After practicing more than 30mins, I seem to hop back on the horse again somewhat, and I do think I'm getting my accuracy back... but it's actually scaring the crap out of me because I have a festival gig coming up in the Spring. Like, if I don't figure out how to manage my practice time more effectively OR figure out the embouchure puzzle in time AND figure out WHAT to practice in time to be able to go back to playing the songs in my band's set well again, I'm going to make a giant embarrassment out of myself and the whole band or even have to sit out... but I can't do that because I hold down a lot of rlly significant riffs that drive the songs structurally.

Anyways sorry if that was too much info; I've just been on this kind of scary re-structuring trip for the past couple months and I *thiiink* I'm going to make it out ok, but part of me is worried that I went too deep into the restructuring curriculum I was using and trusted it a little too much for too long without integrating what I was learning into my old technical abilities and now the old technical abilities are gone and it seems like my horn is broken even after getting it fixed but that's another subject for another time....

.... And after lurking on Trumpet Herald for a bit, I've come to realize that discussing it with others in a forum that is NOT the forum provided/biased by that particular re-structuring instructor who heavily moderates his forums.... is already helping me a LOT! So, hello everyone, nice to meet you, here's my first post, please share your thoughts and/ or use this new topic on the forum to rant about your own attempts to figure out what to practice given a limited time span and real performance deadlines, when you're coming back and trying to change your old ways! (:
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Jaw04
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 31 Dec 2015
Posts: 897
Location: California

PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2022 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clocking minutes per day is almost totally irrelevant. People are completely different. Some things come naturally to a few people with very little time spent, while others spend hours over a long period of time just to be in the same ballpark. Take any art-form as an example, acting, standup comedy, singing. You need to figure out how you learn, how you focus, what routines work for you, what doesn't work for you.

Children are often given minimum/maximum daily practice expectations because they aren't able to self-manage and don't have a good understanding of "how" they learn, but for adults it is not really as helpful.

Too long did not read: it all depends on you.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kehaulani
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 23 Mar 2003
Posts: 8965
Location: Hawai`i - Texas

PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2022 11:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In my experience, unless you are already a good player and play in ensemble(s) several times a week, you will just maintain your level.

There are a couple of caveats: if you're starting from scratch, then your thirty minutes a day should show improvement for a while, because your chops went from nothing to something.

At that point, I don't believe you'll progress much more.
_________________
"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird

Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Getzen Capri Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
HaveTrumpetWillTravel
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 30 Jan 2018
Posts: 1020
Location: East Asia

PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2022 11:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've had periods where I do more, but in thirty minutes a day you can definitely start to ramp up some skills.

As a comeback player, part of the fun is also that there are a lot more resources. I'd used Arbans, but hadn't really spent time with a lip slurs books, Clarke, long tones or exercises like that.

I think overall musicality improves too, so for me that's included transposing for Bb and some new genres of playing.

I'd say keep going for a while and see where it gets you. This is just a hunch, but many trumpet players I know basically went to band class and did no practice, so spending time on solo practice can see quick progress.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
stuartissimo
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 17 Dec 2021
Posts: 956
Location: Europe

PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2022 11:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let me offer a different perspective: if 30 minutes a day is all you have, it’ll have to be enough. Regardless of what anyone else says, reality isn’t gonna change so you might as well make the most of it.

As for the gig you mentioned, the hard truth is that anyone is replacable. If you’re abducted by aliens the night before, they’d have to play without you too. Tell your bandmates about your dilemma, see if together you can come up with a backup plan and just keep practicing. You’ll get there eventually, sooner or later.
_________________
1975 Olds Recording trumpet
1997 Getzen 700SP trumpet
1955 Olds Super cornet
1939 Buescher 280 flugelhorn
AR Resonance mouthpieces
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jhatpro
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 17 Mar 2002
Posts: 10202
Location: The Land Beyond O'Hare

PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2022 12:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Short answer, a half an hour a day isn’t enough to make progress at much of anything.

In his “Outliers: the Story of Success,” Malcom Gladwell claimed that it takes 10,000 hours to master a musical instrument, a monumental commitment especially when you realize there’s only 8,760 hours in a year.

Even if you could imagine practicing a trumpet 40 hours a week Gladwell’s “rule” would require nearly five years to complete.

For insight into what serious musicians have done to “get good” as Jack Sheldon used to put it, check out Paul Berliner’s “Thinking in Jazz.”
_________________
Jim Hatfield

"The notes are there - find them.” Mingus

2021 Martinus Geelan Custom
2005 Bach 180-72R
1965 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1946 Conn Victor
1998 Scodwell flugel
1986 Bach 181 cornet
1954 Conn 80A cornet
2002 Getzen bugle


Last edited by jhatpro on Wed Feb 16, 2022 1:28 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Dayton
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 24 Mar 2013
Posts: 1991
Location: USA

PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2022 12:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Is 30 minutes/ day enough to make serious tone and technique gains that are performance ready in under a year?


Your poll says "in under a year," but your post mentions being ready in "the Spring" which starts in about a month. Only you know how much progress you need to make and exactly how much time you have, so it is difficult to offer concrete advice.

It is quite unlikely that you will make the significant progress you seem to need to be ready for a big gig in a few months, on your own, at 30 minutes per day.

If you want to increase that likelihood, you need help. Find a good teacher right away, even if that means online lessons.

Once you have a good teacher helping you, you need to decide how much the gig matters to you. If it matters a lot, you need to find a way to invest more time in your progress. That said, given the changes you've made, and the fact that you have only recently gotten serious about practice, your chops may not be able to handle a lot more practice time, so you need to ramp up gradually.

Also, pick a point between now and gig time to assess your progress. If, in spite of your best effort, it doesn't seem like you'll be ready for the gig you owe it to your bandmates to give them time to make whatever changes are needed. Good luck!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JayKosta
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 24 Dec 2018
Posts: 3276
Location: Endwell NY USA

PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2022 6:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For 30 minutes a day to be effective, it would have to be intense practice to extend the limits of your 'then current' ability.

To build endurance for performance, you'd need to be pretty wasted at the end of the 30m - but recovered and ready to do it again the next day.

Concentrate on the skills you will need for the performance - don't waste practice time.
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Seymor B Fudd
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 17 Oct 2015
Posts: 1459
Location: Sweden

PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2022 8:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1)I´ve voted no
2)I tend to look upon this as building a pyramid. If you want to reach higher you must build yourself a solid base.
3)your age!
But - some kind of a more or less structured way to go is necessary, including a description of your desired goal.
What do you want to accomplish? Playing just for fun?;Playing in a low grade band? playing in...etc etc.

And: as a 'lip athlete' you will find that there seems to be a variation in the state of your lips - so a certain amount of lip time one day might become too much another day. The reasons for this many and diverse.

But apropos of a structured way:
a) an intelligent (that fits you) warm up period followed by b)studies that will enhance technique/flexibility/attack/tonguing etc etc c)'lactid acid´training in order to make possible longer periods of continual playing
(if you want to endure a dance gig say 2 hours long... you will have to put in a certain amount of practice time - depending on the persistence of your lips. This is personal and everyone will have to find the best possible mixture.
A scheme such as this also will have to take into consideration that you, most of the time, cannot just sit down and practice - you must allow periods of resting. Which may sound obvious - but from my own experience - the risk of over doing the thing is always distinct, at least for us amateurs. Having played in bands since 1958 I did this to myself last autumn Took me almost 3 months to repair.

The age factor might kick in here: when I was 40 +/- 30 minutes a day had to suffice due to life´s demands but this enabled me to play lead chair dance gigs 4x45 minutes. But - I played in two bands every week, one of them a Brass band so my lips were always in a pretty good shape.
And whenever I got the chance - I practiced.....

Again - what´s your setting? Your goal?

In all: 30 minutes may, depending on your age suffice if your embouchure is built on a solid enough base - but it won´t allow you to develop, that´s for sure. And when you get older.....
Unless of course if you are a one person species
_________________
Cornets:
Getzen Custom Series Schilke 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JensenW
Regular Member


Joined: 12 Dec 2012
Posts: 67
Location: Raleigh, NC

PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2022 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All good advice given above. I too am a comeback player, and I find at my stage that it is easy to over do it. But when I can, I plan to increase my practice time. In any case, welcome to the forum.
_________________
Wade
Yamaha YTR 737

The goal is to be a better trumpeter today than I was yesterday.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
TrumpetMD
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 22 Oct 2008
Posts: 2410
Location: Maryland

PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2022 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's not a question that anyone can answer for you. If you can only practice 30 minutes a day, then that's what you should do. If you continue to make progress, then you'll have your answer.

Mike
_________________
Bach Stradivarius 43* Trumpet (1974), Bach 6C Mouthpiece.
Bach Stradivarius 184 Cornet (1988), Yamaha 13E4 Mouthpiece
Olds L-12 Flugelhorn (1969), Yamaha 13F4 Mouthpiece.
Plus a few other Bach, Getzen, Olds, Carol, HN White, and Besson horns.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Notlem
Veteran Member


Joined: 20 Nov 2021
Posts: 127

PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2022 8:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just came off a seven year hiatus a couple of months back or so.

Here is what I have learned at 47 years young and doing my comeback:

After a week of total frustration, I reached out and started taking lessons to get me up and running. There are people out that know way more than I do.

I have learned to never pass up an opportunity to learn from someone, they have knowledge they can pass on and to help in the journey.

Pride can stop people from seeking knowledge. I was totally embarrassed asking for help when I started, it’s the best thing I have ever done!

Teeth move, my setup changed and even my horn angle had to change. Hearing changes too!

Range is not there in the beginning, but creeps back, you found your path once, you will find it again. Give it time.

Don’t practice old stuff you know, you will go straight back into bad old habits. Instead learn something new, like an etude or two. Master each before moving on. Better yet do this under the guidance of a teacher to help with attacks and interpretation.

30 minutes? I was lucky when I first started to last 10! I also learned not to play on inflamed chops, the time will build up before you know it. It’s more important that you keep a schedule. I now play during lunch and after work.

Most importantly, have fun. Otherwise you will just get frustrated.

When I picked the etude I wanted to learn, my teacher went through some options for me, one sounded amazing and was excited to learn it. I’m still working on that piece, but it’s getting way better! Next up in my lesson, he has started to have me do a little sight reading, he also has singing them first before I attempt to play them. Lastly he just added to have me singing notes with a piano to help with with intonation in my spare time.

Listen to trumpet players that you want to sound like to shape the sound in your head.

Never in my life has there been so many trumpet resource's. Due to Covid there is a ton of information on YouTube in the form of interviews with well known players. I have picked up some golden nuggets listening to those.

Welcome back! Enjoy the ride!

-marc
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
abontrumpet
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 08 May 2009
Posts: 1730

PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2022 12:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TrumpetMD wrote:
It's not a question that anyone can answer for you. If you can only practice 30 minutes a day, then that's what you should do. If you continue to make progress, then you'll have your answer.

Mike


+1 to this post and +1 to the thoughtful post by Notlem.

My 2cents:

Anybody who says you CANNOT make progress with 30 mins a day is 100% wrong. You have to utilize the 30 minutes very smartly and address different things as the year progresses. I can almost guarantee most people on this site use 2 hours to accomplish what they could in 30 minutes. The one thing they are right about is overall endurance (efficiency) cannot make the required gainz for real performance situation.

As you are coming into this with a new embouchure:
Quarter 1 (3 months):
Tone production, breathing, simple technique, easy range building, simple slurs and simple tonguing.

This is a really foundational quarter. Bringing the best sounds and mindfulness to the horn during this period will allow you to progress in the later part of the year. Do things that basically do not challenge you in more than one way. Lots of breaks, do not allow for fatigue. If you rush this stage, you'll have to come back to it. You can extend a month or even 2 in this stage. Most people in the world would benefit by coming back to this stage for a month a year.

Quarter 2:
Tone production, breathing, intermediate technique (varied scalar, arpeggio patterns but still not too difficult to keep working on production over technique), intermediate range building, intermediate slurs, simple dynamic building, simple tonguing.


Foundational+ is what we could call this. It's just adding a next step to everything. But it is still JUST outside your comfort zone. Still very mindful and foundational but allowing yourself to step into territories that may be slightly challenging and may challenge you in more than one way. Dynamic building is designed to give your chops the stress that you aren't getting from a longer or multiple sessions; for strength (resiliency) and a slight increase to endurance.

Quarter 3:
Tone production, breathing, intermediate technique, intermediate range building, advanced slurring, intermediate dynamic building, intermediate tonguing.

Now we begin to challenge ourselves more often and in more than one way. Still bringing mindfulness to the first part of your 30 minutes. Getting really good at slurring (path) through the horn will up your efficiency.

Quarter 4:
Tone production, breathing, advanced technique, intermediate range building, intermediate slurring, advanced dynamic building, advanced tonguing.

This is the technique portion and the final push. Once all that foundation is set you can challenge yourself in 3+ ways (e.g., difficult tonguing over wide leaps and in challenging ranges).

This all hinges on you having a real plan for every session and for you to listen and think deeply about music throughout. I think most people would be surprised the amount of progress they would make if they only had 30 minutes a day vs 3 hours.

Good luck.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
cgaiii
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 26 Jun 2017
Posts: 1541
Location: Virginia USA

PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2022 7:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Though I voted yes, it is a very qualified yes, and in some ways mostly no.
If you plan your 30 minutes practice very well, document everything, carefully examine everything you are doing in terms of goals that you have set (outside of the 30 min) and use short very focused, goal oriented studies, parts of pieces, etc., carefully evaluating your progress in each one, stopping before you are "done" with each one, etc. (superlearning techniques), you can make progress with 30 min per day. You will miss out on some aspects of your playing, notably endurance, but you will most likely make progress.
Short practice sessions have the advantage of your being strong throughout the session and your being able to focus well for the entire session. (Of course several 30 min sessions a day would be even better. Sometimes less is more, but not always.
_________________
Bb: Schilke X3L AS SP, Yamaha YTR-6335S
C: Schilke CXL, Kanstul 1510-2
Picc: Kanstul 920
Bb Bugle: Kanstul
Bb Pocket: Manchester Brass
Flugel: Taylor Standard
Bass Trumpet: BAC Custom
Natural Tr: Custom Haas replica by Nikolai Mänttäri Morales
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
darntootn
New Member


Joined: 31 Jan 2022
Posts: 2
Location: Olympia, WA

PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2022 2:56 pm    Post subject: Thanks!! Reply with quote

Thanks to everyone who's responded so far! I'm taking note of all of this.

While I agree that no *one person in particular can tell me how to get it done, I do find all of the different perspectives useful. In order to be able to keep my trumpet-time to a regular amount of time that I can reasonably manage to sustain, while still being able to make meaningful progress and certainly not slip backwards, I've been trying to dedicate my second half hour or fifteen minutes if I have extra time to learning more about methodologies, opinions, theories, exercises, etc. While playing, I hear the voices of past instructors and present advice popping up and informing my choices about what is most important to prioritize working on. The more different opinions corroborate with each other or with my own experience playing, the more I can trust that those bits of advice are good ones to keep practicing and repeating and reminding myself of and working on as long term exercises/skills.

I mean, lately I've also been just using the second half hour if I have it to practice more stuff for longer. A couple people mentioned it's important to practice endurance its self and to focus on the performance its self if my primary goal is to just to get through that particular performance. Someone else had a helpful way of thinking about progress in quarters. I think at this point, I decided I had to depart from my first quarter a little early in order to progress through the next few stages so I can get back to playing the songs we need for shows. I think that because I made this departure at a good time and I'm being conscientious of what I need to be able to play by when, I'll be ok at the gig. BUT I definitely plan on returning to that "first quarter" work and the other stages again as I move through regular weekly practice, and as I decide what needs to go into my warm ups. And I hope I can maximize my practice to not only be fine at the gig, but to actually be able to take some of this new embouchure and tone formation into it and sound and feel better. To keep progressing so maybe in the next album I can be incorporating parts that are higher register more regularly, or parts that take more endurance to practice enough to sound good. Or just feel and sound better doing what I already do and thus enjoy it more!

Since going with just one or two instructors in the past was not what worked to keep me on my instrument at the time, I'm now finding it a lot "safer," if you will, to gather a lot of different perspectives and advice and opinions. Then, when I'm actually practicing, I have all these ideas in my brain bank that exist as possibilities. When I feel a sensation of playing clearly and unconstrained, I have a little voice in my head saying "that's a THING, repeat that!", and I know how to recognize it and I know a lot more now than I did last year about what is going on when I do and don't feel good while playing.

blablablalbla

Anyways tl;dr = thank you; this is good stuff; I'm totally checking out that jazz book, too, since that is a 'lil more my angle/philosophy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JayKosta
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 24 Dec 2018
Posts: 3276
Location: Endwell NY USA

PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2022 3:15 pm    Post subject: Re: 30min/day progress? Reply with quote

darntootn wrote:
...
BUT-- now that I'm actually restructuring my entire embouchure, ... Now that I'm working with "new shoes" as a fellow trumpeter referred to my new embouchure, and still building the shoes... it's like I'm learning to walk all over again.
...

-----------------------
Does your embouchure seem to be working?
Things such as: not using excessive mouthpiece pressure, no lip pain or injury, learning to 'finesse' your embouchure (it's a learned skill) for high notes.
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
gwood66
Veteran Member


Joined: 05 Jan 2016
Posts: 301
Location: South of Chicago

PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2022 5:19 am    Post subject: Re: Thanks!! Reply with quote

darntootn wrote:

Since going with just one or two instructors in the past was not what worked to keep me on my instrument at the time, I'm now finding it a lot "safer," if you will, to gather a lot of different perspectives and advice and opinions. Then, when I'm actually practicing, I have all these ideas in my brain bank that exist as possibilities. When I feel a sensation of playing clearly and unconstrained, I have a little voice in my head saying "that's a THING, repeat that!", and I know how to recognize it and I know a lot more now than I did last year about what is going on when I do and don't feel good while playing.


I you are undergoing a real embouchure change it will take months and maybe the better part of a year to start playing well or at least at a good level. I would recommend finding one individual you can trust and stay in one lane until your embouchure change is complete. Constantly changing approaches will eventually lead to lack of progress and frustration. There are folks on here that I would trust and they give lessons over Skype. John Mohan, Jeff Purtle, Billy B just to name a few. Good luck with your embouchure change and your spring gig.
_________________
Gary Wood (comeback player with no street cred)

GR 66M/66MS/66**
Bach Strad 37
Getzen 3052
Yamaha 6345
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mafields627
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 09 Nov 2001
Posts: 3774
Location: AL

PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2022 5:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As a semi-combacker, endurance is the one area that I have NOT been able to improve in the smaller amounts of time I have available for practice (some days 30 minutes, some days longer, some days none). It started back in January and my two hour weekly community band is still a struggle to get through to the end. It's worth saying that endurance has always been an issue for me.
_________________
--Matt--

No representation is made that the quality of this post is greater than the quality of that of any other poster. Oh, and get a teacher!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Comeback Players All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group