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Student horn's sticky valves: What to do?



 
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Big C
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2022 4:12 pm    Post subject: Student horn's sticky valves: What to do? Reply with quote

Didn't know whether to put this here, or on the "Horns" forum. Will start here.

My daughter recently started trumpet! (See thread below and feel free to chime in.) I got her a new horn. It's a Blessing brand student horn ($500 approx. value). It sounds pretty nice but the valve action is terrible (compared to my Eterna Severinsen and my old mid-line cornet). Compounding the problem is that her hands are tiny and she struggles to get her fingertips right on top of the valves. (Valves stick a lot less when I play it, but still... )

What to do? Will the valves loosen up over time? Would a certain valve oil be better? Is there anything a repair shop can do? Any other suggestions?

I wouldn't even be writing this, were the problem not so severe as to hamper her playing. Okay, this isn't the world's greatest horn, but it should be good enough to where the valves come back up w/o sticking as much as they do.
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Last edited by Big C on Sat May 14, 2022 6:00 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2022 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First, throw out the bottle of Blue Juice in the case.

A thorough cleaning is probably the best solution. A trip to the shop and a cleaning not only get the horn clean, it probably solves the valve issue.

Use a good valve oil - Yamaha, Hetman, Ultra Pure.
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stuartissimo
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2022 12:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Given that you're a trumpet player yourself, I trust you've tried applying more valve oil and/or using a different type of valve oil (you did clean the valves before applying a different oil right?). If the valves still stick after that, and given that it's a brand new horn, I'd recommend taking it back to the store and have them fix it under warranty.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2022 4:57 am    Post subject: Re: Student horn's sticky valves: What to do? Reply with quote

Do the valves on YOUR horn work ok when she plays it?

Regarding valve oil, I use a combination of petroleum based oil (Al Cass) and drug store Mineral Oil (clear and unscented, NOT baby oil).
First put a few drops of Mineral Oil on the pistons with finger or Q-tip, and then insert the piston in the valve casing - the action will be too slow.
Next, add drop-by-drop of regular trumpet petroleum valve oil onto each piston until good valve action is reached.

The heavier Mineral Oil adheres better to the piston surface and maintains the oil film to prevent metal-on-metal rubbing and sticking.
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Big C
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2022 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the replies, folks! Updates...

Crazy Finn: Ironically, I have a bottle of Blue Juice in my case (which I use) and we use Ultra Pure on hers because that was what came with the horn. I might try washing the horn, but it is still really new: no gunk or anything in the caps that screw onto the bottoms of the valve casings.

Stuartissimo: I tried more oil, but not yet a different oil. If I try a different one besides Ultra Pure, got a recommendation? As far as taking it back to the shop, I bought it on Amazon last year. Okay, I am now a living example of why it's better to patronize one's local shop.

JayKosta: Yes, when she plays my horn, the valves stick less than on hers (but probably still a bit... striking angle is important). I may try the mineral oil + petroleum valve oil idea; that is a "pro tip". How often do you do that? Are my Blue Juice and her Ultra Pure both petroleum-based oils? I dunno, it just seems like a student horn's valves should be less labor-intensive.

Any other thoughts, keep 'em coming: Much appreciated!
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Last edited by Big C on Sat May 14, 2022 6:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2022 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In my experience when striking angle is involved there is a good chance the valves are worn. If worn valves are responsible what happens is that the oil film is broken due to poorly fitting valves moving sideways in the casing.

What has helped me in my case is using a thicker valve oil formulated for “vintage” valves. I found this solution after YourBrass recommended it to me after he examined my trumpet. I use Berp Bio Oil on that horn now.

You might want to try one of the thicker valve oils to see if it helps.

Edit: I missed that the issue is on a new(er) horn. Exchange the phrase “loosely fitted” for “worn” and my points might still be valid.


Last edited by LittleRusty on Fri Apr 29, 2022 9:01 am; edited 1 time in total
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stuartissimo
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2022 5:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Big C wrote:
Stuartissimo: I tried more oil, but not yet a different oil. If I try a different one besides Ultra Pure, got a recommendation? As far as taking it back to the shop, I bought it on Amazon last year. Okay, I am now a living example of why it's better to patronize one's local shop.

Not an expert on valve oils so can't help you, sorry. If you have a different valve oil in house already then you might as well try that. It does strike me as a little odd that the valves would get sticky in less than a year though, especially since you're a trumpet player yourself (so I assume you know the basics of oiling, cleaning, etc.). Were the valves fine when you just got the horn, or were they always problematic?

Given that warranty isn't an option, a trip to a tech is probably your best bet. It's pretty hard to assess the problem without seeing the horn in question. It could be anything from assymetric valve wear or a bent/dented casing (was the instrument dropped at any time?), to simply cheap materials or a poorly constructed trumpet.
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A.N.A.Mendez
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2022 6:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What did your tech say when he looked it over. ?




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Tom LeCompte
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2022 8:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stuartissimo wrote:
(you did clean the valves before applying a different oil right?).


And the casings!
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Rapier232
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2022 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lighter Fluid (cigarettes) works well to remove old oil from the valves and casings. It evaporates quite quickly, so you can apply any new/different oil straight away.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2022 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rapier232 wrote:
Lighter Fluid (cigarettes) works well to remove old oil from the valves and casings. It evaporates quite quickly, so you can apply any new/different oil straight away.


How much do you put on and don't you have to be really careful when you light it?
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2022 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Big C wrote:
Thanks for the replies, folks! Updates...

Crazy Finn: Ironically, I have a bottle of Blue Juice in my case (which I use) and we use Ultra Pure on hers because that was what came with the horn. I might try washing the horn, but it is still really new: no gunk or anything in the caps that screw onto the bottoms of the valve casings.

Stuartissimo: I tried more oil, but not yet a different oil. If I try a different one besides Ultra Pure, got a recommendation? As far as taking it back to the shop, I bought it on Amazon last year. Okay, I am now a living example of why it's better to patronize one's local shop.

JayKosta: Yes, when she plays my horn, the valves stick less than on hers (but probably still a bit... striking angle is important). I may try the mineral oil + petroleum valve oil idea; that is a "pro tip". How often do you do that? Are my Blue Juice and her Ultra Pure both petroleum-based oils? I dunno, it just seems like a student horn's valves should be less labor-intensive.

Any other thoughts, keep 'em coming: Much appreciated!

Valve oils often don't mix well together and any time one switches a thorough cleaning is necessary.

Blue Juice is the king of not mixing well with others, one reason it's a bad choice for students who sometimes do that. It if it works for you, that's good. I don't have many positive experiences with it.

Blue Juice is - I think petroleum based - but I admit, I don't know for sure and they don't have a manufacturer website that I can find quickly.

Ultra Pure is a synthetic oil, so different formulation. The others I listed as good: Yamaha and Hetman - are also synthetic.

I think that these are a little inadequate as labels if you dig really hard down through the chemistry, but I don't, so I just go with the broad categories that I've heard discussed.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2022 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Big C, I know one of Quinn the Eskimo's technicians and they say that they use BERP. Since they wrote that, I changed to it and it's been working fine. I only changed because it lasts longer, but I have used Herman's for a long time with no problems. An advantage of Hetman is that the oil comes in several grades.
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2022 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Crazy Finn wrote:
Blue Juice is - I think petroleum based - but I admit, I don't know for sure and they don't have a manufacturer website that I can find quickly.


“Blue Juice Valve Oil is a light, fast, refined petroleum product…”
Heid Music website

There is nothing special about the linked page, it is not the manufacturer’s page, other than it agrees with many others I found in a quick search.
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2022 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LittleRusty wrote:
There is nothing special about the linked page, it is not the manufacturer’s page, other than it agrees with many others I found in a quick search.

Thanks, guess I could have put in an extra 30 seconds of work. It was Blue Juice, I was reluctant to do so.
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2022 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Crazy Finn wrote:
LittleRusty wrote:
There is nothing special about the linked page, it is not the manufacturer’s page, other than it agrees with many others I found in a quick search.

Thanks, guess I could have put in an extra 30 seconds of work. It was Blue Juice, I was reluctant to do so.

One of my few uses.
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Big C
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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2022 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks folks. Sounds like my next move is to wash out the horn and try a different valve oil, perhaps a thicker one (I see Yamaha and Hetson come in different viscosities.).

As best I can remember, I have always used just water and a soft cloth to flush out my trumpet, including pistons and casings. But perhaps I should use water with Dawn to remove the previous oil, eh?

I'm not sure if the lighter fluid tip was for real or not, but I don't think I'm going to try it.
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