Intonation issues on bach stradivarius 184 ML cornet

[Eduardo90]

Hello fellows, hope you are doing great, i recently bought a bach stradivarius 184 ml silver plated cornet for about 650 usd, the horn came with a bach 5c mouthpiece and a non original case, the horn has a couple of little dings and it seems the bell was repaired at some point also there is a dent located in the round part of the 3rd slide other than that the horns works fine with good valve compresion, all the slides move, the silver finish its about 85 to 90 percent and it has really good tone quality, it responds bright and with projection when needed and if you back off it gets really mellow even with the 5c mouthpiece, however i have been having problems with the intonation, most notes are really sharp if i dont move the main tuning slide about an inch and a half, i would like to know if thats a common issue with this model or if its maybe my lack of experience playing sheperds crook cornets (this is my first sheperds crook cornet) my other cornets are a yamaha 231 long bell(first model) and a yamaha 2310 long bell first generation ( its interesting that those two yamaha long bell cornets get a darker sound than the bach using the same 5c mouthpiece however the yamahas sound more fluffy and smokey like similar to a flugelhorn when playing soft and the bach sounds like a cornet, by the way those older yamaha models compete in terms of tone with the bach, and also they seem to be made with a one piece bell, they play almost like a pro horn), thanks in advance.

[Uberopa]

Finding a Bach short cornet at that price and condition is a pretty good deal. You can still out a few bucks into it and have a very nice cornet inded. Dents do affect intonation so that might be a start. I played a Benge 8Z that just wasn't quite right. I sent it to George Rawlins to set up and whatever voodoo he used made the horn a hot to play. You will find that Jim Becker at Osmun Music or Charlie Melk or Dr. Valve can do cleaning and valve alignments that really improve the instrument. Flip Oakes does enhancements that are highly regarded. There are many others that I have failed to mention. Your total investment of $1000 including purchase will be well worth it.
The Yamaha 2310's are something else. They play so well. If you get the same series flugelhorn you will be hard pressed to hear a huge difference from the pro models.
Best of luck.

[TrumpetMD]

[Crazy Finn]

I have a Bach 184L. Actually, I've had two: one was owned by a brass group I played with and the other is my own that I bought later.

I haven't had any significant intonation issues. I think I might have been a bit sharp when I first played it two decades ago. Generally, the main tuning slide is out less than an inch. I've almost always played it with some flavor of a Bach 3C. I've tried other pieces - Bach 6 (also pretty good), Curry DC, Bach 1 1/2C - I have to work too hard to project in the brass septet with anything other than a 3C.
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LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn

[zaferis]

My 184 plays pretty well intune, I also have to pull the main tuning slide a bit further than I do say on my Bach 190 Bb Trumpet.

Mouthpiece choice and fit obviously have an impact on tone but can also have an impact on intonation. These cornets do have a receiver that has a step at the leadpipe (thus a gap), so standard cornet mouthpiece to create a proper gap/fit. It could be that the receiver is worn or improperly placed -this might be worth a look by a technician.??

Then remember it's a cornet, it shouldn't sound like your trumpet(s), you shouldn't fit it and blow the same. Back off and do a bunch of soft playing on it and see if that doesn't improve the intonation.

I have found that I like a little extra weight on my 184. A Bach heavy weight bottom valve cap on #3 with a rubber ring, Curry Action Rods, brass valve guides. I've found this settles the sound down and gives me that warm cornet tone I'm after. Curry 3DC. mouthpiece for most things. Bach 6 (no letter) is another good choice.
IMO standard "C" cups are far to bright for a decent cornet sound, regarless of brand.
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[klaus_o]

I recently experienced these intonation issues on a Getzen Eterna cornet. I required about 1-1/2 inch pull on the tuning slide in order to bring the horn in tune. I suspect as Zaferis has suggested that there is a worn receiver on your horn.

I verified this on the Getzen by wrapping a strip of paper around the shank of my mouthpiece (new Curry BBC) and inserting it into the receiver. This reduced the insertion depth resulting in the tuning slide needing far less adjustment (about 1 inch required).

The Getzen does not have a step or gap between the receiver and leadpipe like the Bach 184 does. It appears that if the mouthpiece insertion gets too close to the interface junction (or in your case the step/gap), then the intonation can be adversely impacted.

Try the paper strip. See if it makes a difference. You should experience a slight increase in the blow resistance as well.
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Klaus_O

[Tom LeCompte]

I also have a 184 and also don't have intonation issues.

But what is the problem with pulling the slide out farther than you would like? That seems preferable to having the majority of notes sharp, no?

[Andy Cooper]

I think the early student Yamaha cornets are very very good. For me, however, they played flat. My solution was to cut about 1/2" off the main tuning slide.
So for me, your Bach would probably play in tune at 3/4 " pull.

If the scale line is in tune, there really isn't a problem. If you are concerned about the extra gap introduced in the tuning slide, you could have 1/2" long inserts made from slide tubing and put in the top, bottom, or both female slides. (Of course they will get stuck and the next owner will say bad words.)

Next approach is to try a British Band style mouthpiece. The Yamaha 13 E4 or 14E might be a place to start. You can get these on trial. Even though these are short shank, these deep cup mouthpieces tend to lower the pitch of the horn. If a deep Yamaha takes care of the tuning problem, there are then other BB style mouthpieces you could try that might have better rims.

[Louise Finch]

I have a Bach 184ML rather than L, so I'm not sure if it differs in this regard, but I find that I have the tuning slide out a normal amount, pretty much the same as on my trumpet. My first brass band had a matched set of Bach 184MLs, and I don't remember anyone have the tuning slide pulled out so far, so it may be worth having your cornet checked over by a good tech.

All the best

Lou
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Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs