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brassmoose
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Joined: 23 Apr 2022
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Location: Seattle, WA
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 Posted: Wed May 11, 2022 11:16 am Post subject: #28 throat backbore for electric bands |
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Hi all,
My safari has lead me to a Picket 1.25CD (competing with a James New S6MS and S6M). I'm looking to get #28 throat versions of at least one of these, and looking for thoughts on a #28 backbore. I'm pairing these mpcs with my Schilke X3. I bottom out on anything shallower, so sizzle from a shallow mpc is a no go. The most shallow I can go is a Warburton 2MC but the rim kinda hurts & cuts me off about high E, but wow do I love the sizzle it gives.
I play in funk, soul, and afrobeat bands of 6-13 people with 2-5 horns, so I usually need to stand out on top with some sizzle, but also need endurance. General needed range is low D to F# above high C, with 1-2 solos per set. I generally need to survive 2-3 45 minute sets, or one 75-90 minute set. This is with full rhythm section (drums, bass, keys, 1-2 guitars, percussion).
On my #27, I like my James New 9 backbore (a 69) for smaller horn sections & soloing, and I like my James New T backbore (Trigg/Candoli) for range which is a little more resistant and tighter, and a tiny bit brighter than the 9. I have a Warburton Q that's not too tight to me, but goes very flat at high C.
For a #28 throat, I was curious about a Pickett C4 to add some sizzle but not sure about the sound and tightness compared to the James New T, which feels good. Could someone describe the C4 with some detail? Sizzle, intonation, range, endurance?
I'm also interested in any recommendations on other backbores or advice on #28 throats, etc.. The Marckinkiewicz E13 is amazing and sizzles like crazy, but I bottom out after 5 minutes or above the staff. I wonder if that backbore would be good if I got it chopped. On VennCAD is looks tighter & straighter than a Warburton 4.
Thank you!
- Mike |
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Andy Cooper
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bach_again
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Joined: 03 Apr 2005
Posts: 2479
Location: Northern Ireland
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| Posted: Wed May 11, 2022 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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Firstly - try a Lede fit kit from Vennture... you won't regret it!
If you do, try their C backbore - 28 drill, and man does it sizzle. Some people coming from real tight backbores might prefer the B or A BB, and some with resistant horns might prefer the D backbore.
The BB is only part of the equation - that's why I suggest the Lede kit.
https://www.vennture.mp/product/lede-fit-kit-plus-mouthpiece/
Nothing compares to actually playing the thing. Perhaps gross correlations can be made online, but you play how you play on your horn... you gotta try for yourself really. I can tell you that I play lead on my 1X* and an Olds Studio/Super with a 28 throat and C backbore, but that works for me... you might not dig it.
*It really is a 1X. By Vennture. For me 
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Divitt Trumpets
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| Posted: Wed May 11, 2022 5:28 pm Post subject: |
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A Mouthpiece might help, but the biggest thing I've learned from hundreds of gigs in rock/electric bands is that they play too loud.
If you don't have a good monitor setup you will be overblowing just to hear yourself, which will kill your endurance and tone in no time.
For me, it got to the point where I brought my own personal monitor that clipped on my mic stand to every gig. Total game changer because I didn't need to rely on hearing my sound over the band anymore.
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bach_again
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Joined: 03 Apr 2005
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Location: Northern Ireland
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| Posted: Wed May 11, 2022 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Divitt Trumpets wrote: | A Mouthpiece might help, but the biggest thing I've learned from hundreds of gigs in rock/electric bands is that they play too loud.
If you don't have a good monitor setup you will be overblowing just to hear yourself, which will kill your endurance and tone in no time.
For me, it got to the point where I brought my own personal monitor that clipped on my mic stand to every gig. Total game changer because I didn't need to rely on hearing my sound over the band anymore. |
Hey Ewan - wholeheartedly agreed!
What monitor did you use? I was doing that with a Behringer personal monitor, it made a huge difference. I got lazy and stopped bringing it tho. Tried IEMs and eventualy back to plugs/sound back and backing way off. Nothing like hearing yourself tho!!
_________________
Maestro Arturo Sandoval on Barkley Microphones!
https://youtu.be/iLVMRvw5RRk
Michael Barkley Quartet - Portals:
https://michaelbarkley.bandcamp.com/album/portals
The best movie trumpet solo?
https://youtu.be/OnCnTA6toMU |
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Ed Kennedy
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giakara
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Location: Greece
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| Posted: Wed May 11, 2022 11:34 pm Post subject: Re: #28 throat backbore for electric bands |
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| brassmoose wrote: | Hi all,
My safari has lead me to a Picket 1.25CD (competing with a James New S6MS and S6M). I'm looking to get #28 throat versions of at least one of these, and looking for thoughts on a #28 backbore. I'm pairing these mpcs with my Schilke X3. I bottom out on anything shallower, so sizzle from a shallow mpc is a no go. The most shallow I can go is a Warburton 2MC but the rim kinda hurts & cuts me off about high E, but wow do I love the sizzle it gives.
I play in funk, soul, and afrobeat bands of 6-13 people with 2-5 horns, so I usually need to stand out on top with some sizzle, but also need endurance. General needed range is low D to F# above high C, with 1-2 solos per set. I generally need to survive 2-3 45 minute sets, or one 75-90 minute set. This is with full rhythm section (drums, bass, keys, 1-2 guitars, percussion).
On my #27, I like my James New 9 backbore (a 69) for smaller horn sections & soloing, and I like my James New T backbore (Trigg/Candoli) for range which is a little more resistant and tighter, and a tiny bit brighter than the 9. I have a Warburton Q that's not too tight to me, but goes very flat at high C.
For a #28 throat, I was curious about a Pickett C4 to add some sizzle but not sure about the sound and tightness compared to the James New T, which feels good. Could someone describe the C4 with some detail? Sizzle, intonation, range, endurance?
I'm also interested in any recommendations on other backbores or advice on #28 throats, etc.. The Marckinkiewicz E13 is amazing and sizzles like crazy, but I bottom out after 5 minutes or above the staff. I wonder if that backbore would be good if I got it chopped. On VennCAD is looks tighter & straighter than a Warburton 4.
Thank you!
- Mike |
If you bottom out with shallow cups but you need something to survive in that gigs try a Reeves 43M DM , this line is specially designed to balance all the Reeves cups with #28 bore , the cup is a crossover cup that allows you to play the high registers with out bottom out and the magical Reeves rim to survive on those gigs.
I strongly recommend the 43W rim if you play lot of hours in high registers and for your LB horn the 692s bbore is also recommended.
Good luck.
Regards
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Locutus2k
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Joined: 01 Feb 2006
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Location: Rome, Italy
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| Posted: Thu May 12, 2022 12:10 am Post subject: |
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Many makers think that a #27 backbore paired with a #28 cup (in 2 pieces models) is better. Don't know why but that's what i've heard (Patrick for example).
My suggestion: try a Curry #50S backbore, that is his high compression backbore used in the Z line.
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Jon Arnold
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brassmoose
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Joined: 23 Apr 2022
Posts: 79
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Thu May 12, 2022 12:29 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks, Jon! My Pickett 1.25 is .675 according to Pickett and unfortunately the largest Pickett commercial mpc is .660. I might be able to play on a .670, but .660 just wouldn't work.
I'm squarely in the Bach 1 1/4 range (WarbUSA 2 range). Mayyybe down to (wide-ish) Bach 1 1/2. I've tried larger mouthpieces like Warburton 1MC or Stork 1.25 or Hammond 1 and they are too big. I might go down to a Giardinelli 6, but would need a wide rim, and the James New W6 would fit that bill. Feels like the same size. I was playing on a Giardinelli 7 and it wasn't working for me, which is what started the safari.
The Lede kit suggested by bach_again maxes out at about a Bach 1 1/2, so I don't think it would do much for me, although I have looked into their mpcs and am curious, but the Pickett 1.25CD keeps winning my shoot-outs (I have about 30-40 mpcs "in the box").
Also, to Andy Cooper, thanks! I have had the Marc E10 and E12 for some time and could never make them work. Either too small or too narrow. I used to play on a Marc E13 (C. Findley) but could never really make it work, and now something has change (physically?) and I bottom out rapidly on it.
I think my fate (for now) is tied to the Pickett 1.25CD or James New 6 range. Hammond 2MB rim fits great, but the throat & bb are too large.
If I find a the Reeves suggested above, I might give that a try. |
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brassmoose
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Joined: 23 Apr 2022
Posts: 79
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Thu May 12, 2022 12:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Divitt Trumpets wrote: | A Mouthpiece might help, but the biggest thing I've learned from hundreds of gigs in rock/electric bands is that they play too loud.
If you don't have a good monitor setup you will be overblowing just to hear yourself, which will kill your endurance and tone in no time.
For me, it got to the point where I brought my own personal monitor that clipped on my mic stand to every gig. Total game changer because I didn't need to rely on hearing my sound over the band anymore. |
Great advice! I agree! I have experienced this over the years--and it took me while to learn & to advocate for myself and band. Now I demand it & everyone is the better for it.
To survive a long gig it's either a great monitor mix or my fitted earplugs. A bad or absent monitor can kill ya. I have used a Mackie personal monitor at times in small venues, as the Behringer seemed to be less reliable (YMMV).
I've also learned a lot of chop saving tricks & I think I'm down to a few things: 1) less pressure, 2) maximum efficiency, 3) more strength, 4) better and reliable warm ups. The hunt for a #28 throat and backbore is part of that.
Oh, to Andy Cooper...thanks! I do have an RT4 and am on the fence. Didn't like it at first, but I'm finding it better and better as I learn to back off and be more physically efficient & I'm now wondering about an RT2--even tighter.
Still...can anyone weigh in on the Pickett C4?
My continued appreciation to everyone,
- Mike |
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Jon Arnold
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| Posted: Thu May 12, 2022 1:23 pm Post subject: |
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Contact Pickett. I bet they could make you a commercial piece in a larger diameter. Peter is amazing and can make anything you could think of. I usually don't suggest pieces for others, but this one works so well for me I think is it worth considering. I also played on other Picketts and this one just worked for what its worth. The rim design is great on the Commercial piece.
| brassmoose wrote: |
Thanks, Jon! My Pickett 1.25 is .675 according to Pickett and unfortunately the largest Pickett commercial mpc is .660. I might be able to play on a .670, but .660 just wouldn't work.
I'm squarely in the Bach 1 1/4 range (WarbUSA 2 range). Mayyybe down to (wide-ish) Bach 1 1/2. I've tried larger mouthpieces like Warburton 1MC or Stork 1.25 or Hammond 1 and they are too big. I might go down to a Giardinelli 6, but would need a wide rim, and the James New W6 would fit that bill. Feels like the same size. I was playing on a Giardinelli 7 and it wasn't working for me, which is what started the safari.
The Lede kit suggested by bach_again maxes out at about a Bach 1 1/2, so I don't think it would do much for me, although I have looked into their mpcs and am curious, but the Pickett 1.25CD keeps winning my shoot-outs (I have about 30-40 mpcs "in the box").
Also, to Andy Cooper, thanks! I have had the Marc E10 and E12 for some time and could never make them work. Either too small or too narrow. I used to play on a Marc E13 (C. Findley) but could never really make it work, and now something has change (physically?) and I bottom out rapidly on it.
I think my fate (for now) is tied to the Pickett 1.25CD or James New 6 range. Hammond 2MB rim fits great, but the throat & bb are too large.
If I find a the Reeves suggested above, I might give that a try. |
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brassmoose
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Joined: 23 Apr 2022
Posts: 79
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Fri May 13, 2022 11:01 am Post subject: |
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[quote="Jon Arnold"]Contact Pickett. I bet they could make you a commercial piece in a larger diameter. Peter is amazing and can make anything you could think of. I usually don't suggest pieces for others, but this one works so well for me I think is it worth considering. I also played on other Picketts and this one just worked for what its worth. The rim design is great on the Commercial piece.
Thanks, Jon! That definitely sounds like a good avenue to take. I'm acclimating more & more to the James New T and the RT4 from Ken Titmus. I think I'll take at least a few months on these and see how I settle in. I have a hunch I might downsize a little towards a 1 1/2 rim. Playing a variety of gigs will be the real test. |
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Jon Arnold
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| Posted: Fri May 13, 2022 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="brassmoose"] | Jon Arnold wrote: | Contact Pickett. I bet they could make you a commercial piece in a larger diameter. Peter is amazing and can make anything you could think of. I usually don't suggest pieces for others, but this one works so well for me I think is it worth considering. I also played on other Picketts and this one just worked for what its worth. The rim design is great on the Commercial piece.
Thanks, Jon! That definitely sounds like a good avenue to take. I'm acclimating more & more to the James New T and the RT4 from Ken Titmus. I think I'll take at least a few months on these and see how I settle in. I have a hunch I might downsize a little towards a 1 1/2 rim. Playing a variety of gigs will be the real test. |
I totally agree. Testing equipment in a performance situation is the only way to know if it really works. Best of luck to you!!! |
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gypsyblues
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Location: Philly
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| Posted: Sat May 14, 2022 9:53 am Post subject: C4 backbore |
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Hi Mike,
I have a C4/27 backbore that I can try to describe, though I haven't played it much. I play on a Pickett R/27 and a Titmus RT#3 daily, so we are using similar backbores already. The C4 is way more compressed than the other two. Made for efficient paint peeling I suppose. Nothing I've played compares to the level of compression found in the c4. I don't play over C much, and I usually play non-amplified, so the RT3 is perfect for what I'm doing. I'll probably put the C4 up in the marketplace soon |
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Jon Arnold
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| Posted: Sat May 14, 2022 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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| FYI, the commercial mouthpiece has the R4 backbore. |
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brassmoose
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Joined: 23 Apr 2022
Posts: 79
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Mon May 16, 2022 8:09 am Post subject: |
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| Jon Arnold wrote: | | FYI, the commercial mouthpiece has the R4 backbore. |
That's great information. Thanks, Jon! I just purchased gypsyblues's C4 and it should be here by Saturday. I'm hoping it's similar to the James New T, so that whichever top I choose, I can get that mpc maker's top & backbore made into a one piece with a #28 throat. I'm acclimating to the T much faster than I expected and am getting great results, so I'm pretty excited to see where this all goes.
To make matter's even more interesting, I snagged up a cheap ACB 1.25CS Gen 2 top and it does a good job as well (the flatter rim is nice), although the Picket & JNew backbores don't fully screw in & engage in the ACB & therefore don't work (massive resistance). I'm going to give them a shout and see if that's an issue in the the newer, Kansas City pieces. |
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Jon Arnold
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| Posted: Mon May 16, 2022 9:27 am Post subject: |
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| brassmoose wrote: | | Jon Arnold wrote: | | FYI, the commercial mouthpiece has the R4 backbore. |
That's great information. Thanks, Jon! I just purchased gypsyblues's C4 and it should be here by Saturday. I'm hoping it's similar to the James New T, so that whichever top I choose, I can get that mpc maker's top & backbore made into a one piece with a #28 throat. I'm acclimating to the T much faster than I expected and am getting great results, so I'm pretty excited to see where this all goes.
To make matter's even more interesting, I snagged up a cheap ACB 1.25CS Gen 2 top and it does a good job as well (the flatter rim is nice), although the Picket & JNew backbores don't fully screw in & engage in the ACB & therefore don't work (massive resistance). I'm going to give them a shout and see if that's an issue in the the newer, Kansas City pieces. |
Awesome. let me know how that turns out for you. I have found the R4 is more open than the C4 but both can cut. I personally prefer the R4.
Good luck with everything! |
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Brad361
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| Posted: Tue May 17, 2022 8:25 am Post subject: |
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| Divitt Trumpets wrote: | A Mouthpiece might help, but the biggest thing I've learned from hundreds of gigs in rock/electric bands is that they play too loud.
If you don't have a good monitor setup you will be overblowing just to hear yourself, which will kill your endurance and tone in no time.
For me, it got to the point where I brought my own personal monitor that clipped on my mic stand to every gig. Total game changer because I didn't need to rely on hearing my sound over the band anymore. |
THIS. ☝️☝️☝️
I also find myself overblowing and killing my chops if I am having trouble with proper feedback.
I don’t use my own personally owned monitor, but the sound guy we always use is skilled, and cooperative. One other thing that has been a surprising help regarding this is using a bell clip on mic. It’s not wireless, but having that mic centered right where it should be REALLY helps, IMO.
And, I recently bought one of Tony Scodwell’s EXCELLENT horns, the Standard/Las Vegas. This horn’s resonance and feedback is a great help.
Brad
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