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Producing the sound in your head…



 
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Notlem
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2022 5:30 pm    Post subject: Producing the sound in your head… Reply with quote

Always been told by many:

Listen to whom you want to sound like, that your a mix of whom you listen too.

You can’t play high unless you can hear it.

Then Arturo posts this:
https://www.facebook.com/TuryArturoSandoval/videos/665940661278978/

Im thinking, if I listen to Hakan 24/7, maybe my chalier etude #2 will stop making the wolves howl when I play it!

What’s your experience?
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2022 5:19 am    Post subject: Re: Producing the sound in your head… Reply with quote

Notlem wrote:
... What’s your experience?

---------------------------------
"Producing the sound in your head"
Your imagination is the 'control knobs' for how you adjust your sound.
It depends on how much the knobs can be moved, and whether your chops can respond.
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abontrumpet
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2022 7:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is an absolute necessity for listening, intense listening, for many many hours, over years to know what it is you prefer in a trumpet sound and what you would "love" to sound like. Then you eventually move on to better music, but in the beginning, lots of trumpet.

That's half of the equation. Then you need to "look in the mirror to make sure you've done your hair right," aka recording yourself and listening back. To understand what you are achieving behind the bell you have to listen to your (high quality) recorded self. By listening intensely to that, your brain will calibrate inputs to outputs over time. Eventually you will settle on "your" sound after many years of copying and assimilating.

If you want to sound like hakan, then listening to hakan 24/7 is productive for you. Then you record yourself and see if you are achieving the same sound as hakan. For me, it's really hard to assimilate the core sound of hakan into my playing because while he does so much I like, the core sound does not resonate with me the way that prime Phil Smith does (for example). Anyway. Have fun!
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Shaft
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2022 8:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are lineage charts of jazz artists that have been done.
Essentially they draw out each artists’ influences.
Info gained through interviews and research.
It seems to be very accurate too.

There is a phase like the previous post mentions where it is
listening to anything and everything. (Sometimes its lifelong)
Eventually you gravitate towards a focus when working on your sound though.
Then get suitable equipment for the job.

Personally Maynard Ferguson, Bill Chase, Arturo Sandoval, Cat,
Jon faddis, and Jim Manley makeup the bulk of what I listen to.

Noone will ever hear me play and say
“oh I can hear a Lee Morgan influence”.
Just won’t happen. Yes I love listening to him though.

In the classical world those trumpeters will give an account of who they
listened to to get the sound in their head also. It is a very real phenomenon.

Sometimes, a person listens to something
totally outside of the genre or instrument type
and receives a very unique influence imbued in their sound.
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dmatchim
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PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2022 5:09 pm    Post subject: Tone Concept Reply with quote

100% have to know what you want to sound like in order to get mechanics and fundamentals working in the right way. Our sound provides immediate feedback to any adjustments we make. Just had this talk with a student today. If it sounds better, it's most likely the better way to play!
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MrOlds
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PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2022 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are macro and micro perspectives on this. What model do you have for sound (start a note< change to another note, end a note) and what model you have for content, phrasing, inflection, note choice/harmonic content (for us jazz players).

Ultimately you want to sound like you in such a way that people want to hear what you have to say.

We can hear Wayne Shorter play one note and recognize it’s him. We can hear a phrase from Wayne and on some level understand the encyclopedic depth of his experience and unique vision (nature/nurture?).

We can have the same experience with all the great artists. We can understand their individual technique and the depth of their journey to get to where they were when we heard them.

Be like that.
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2022 7:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There’s definitely validity to this concept, the problem that can occur though is when someone thinks this is a partial substitute for plenty of proper practice and guidance from a qualified teacher. It’s the same thing with a LOT of popular music. Watch something like “The Voice” (I can’t and don’t), but all they talk about is emotion and stage presence, nothing about the fundamentals and mechanics that if you don’t have, you’re probably not very good. And yes, it’s just “reality television”, but I see those attitudes in MANY “musicians.” Theatrics and appearances, without much else to back it up.

It’s the same thing with the internet in general: I think sometimes people think asking questions on forums and Facebook pages and watching Youtube is a substitute for a teacher.
It’s NOT. Obviously.

Soapbox dismount. 😎

Brad
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2022 8:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It may be implied in some posts but, best as I have read, not spelled out and that is the importance of articulation. That is tied to how something is phrased, the vibrato, many things we do not automatically think of when we think of "tone".

To some, especially classical players, vibrato is part of tone. In Jazz, I haven't seen it expressed quite in the same way. Nevertheless, to the average person, vibrato is also a character of tone. Lisen to the difference in Harry James' vibrato and Miles'. Unmistakable.

While pure, core sound makes a difference, don't undervalue the role that articulation plays in the mix.
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TKSop
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PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2022 8:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Partly for the sake of balance, I'm going to rain on the parade a little bit...

Whilst listening to the greats (and especially personal favourites) is always worthwhile in and of itself, and inspiration is incredibly valuable, attempting to emulate other players sound can be at best a distraction and at worst potentially quite destructive to progress.

If you're an exceptionally strong player who already has rock solid fundamentals, a very mature embouchure and you're looking for new challenges, maybe it's something worth at least spending a little time on (though not at the expense of your maintenance routines, etc).

Before that point? Probably not.

Let's spell out a few simple truths here...

1) Differences in physical features (lips, teeth, tongue, oral cavity, etc) will tend to produce differences in natural tone... And that's without getting into the minefield of how different embouchures function and the differences in sound that can produce.

2) Individuality matters - there's a reason most of the greats don't sound exactly like each other... Part of that comes down to point #1, part of it comes down to mouthpiece or horn choices, and part of it comes down to how they chose to play, what they played and what they practiced.


What this all comes down to is... Yes, there are influences on how we play, and listening to them may open our minds to different ways of phrasing and colouring our sound, but the underlying sound is our own.

What you really don't want to do is to neglect to develop the core of your own sound (and neglect to find and play on equipment that suits you - with good response and intonation for you) as a result of being possessed by the desire to sound like someone else that you may or may not be able to replicate.

There's a reason the greats are the greats - they worked on being the best damn player they could possibly be, and developed what they had as much as they possibly could (working with their nature rather than against it) and it's important that we don't miss the wood for the trees ourselves in pursuit of being the best player we can be.

Talk to any great player and they'll have nothing but admiration for their peers... But they're not looking to sound like their peers, they're looking to sound the best they can and (IMHO) we should all do the same.

(I'm not saying you're all barking up a tree you shouldn't be, but trying to put into perspective that we must not become overly attached to sounding a particular way - learning to love and nurture your natural sound is also important!)
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2022 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I didn't read that the OP wanted to be a carbon copy of Håkan Hardenberger but the importance of intense concentration on what tone one wants to produce. The process.
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TKSop
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PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2022 8:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
I didn't read that the OP wanted to be a carbon copy of Håkan Hardenberger but the importance of intense concentration on what tone one wants to produce. The process.


Even if becoming a carbon copy were the goal, it'd be impossible.

My point really isn't predicated on that anyway - it's important to listen to our own sound and improve it, but it has to be done in a way that's in harmony with ourselves... Sure, you can try and emulate certain techniques like vib or articulation style, but that is only part of the process, and at times it won't even necessarily be the optimal way for the individual to play.

At any rate, it's important that attempts at emulation in this regard are not an all consuming quest that takes precedence over our own progress and nurturing avenues that provide us with the most effective path to success (obviously as long as it's not disadvantageous in the long run, ie: technically incorrect).
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Notlem
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PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2022 10:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think everyone made it clear that listening to others for phrasing, articulation, when to use vibrato, dynamics of a piece are most important to reflecting the characteristics we would like to have our overall sound influenced by, especially on certain pieces.

Also that there are physical limitations to this. However there seems to be parts of peoples core sounds that are technique still related, like getting airy sound or more resilience in the sound that some can seem to just jump to with no equipment changes.

The suggestion to work on trying to emulate others through may help develop my overall individual sound. After listening to hakan, it seems like my sound magically opened up. Maybe if I listened to more chase it would be more laser like.

I appreciate all the comments and will take these all in advisement as I continue my path. Gotta love a community that helps us explore our thoughts and put them into perspective!
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dbacon
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PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2022 11:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Imitate, assimilate, and innovate. ... Clark Terry
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stuartissimo
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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2022 4:18 am    Post subject: Re: Producing the sound in your head… Reply with quote

Notlem wrote:
What’s your experience?

You really don’t want to know what’s going on in my head…
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