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Pressing valves off axis



 
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AndrewKennedyMusic
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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2022 3:07 am    Post subject: Pressing valves off axis Reply with quote

Hi, I’ve always owned cheap trumpets and never played or had access to high quality ones. One thing I’ve always noticed is how sensitive these cheap trumpets are to having the valves pressed off axis. What I mean is that unless the valves are pressed straight, with good technique, they tend to stick or become sluggish.

I understand that all trumpet valves are “floating” on a thin skin of oil, but I’m wondering if more expensive trumpets are more tolerant of being pressed slightly off access.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2022 5:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In a word, no.

Modern trumpets, and all brass really, are built with valve clearances of 0.0005" typically. If the player imparts a lateral force to the piston, it scrapes on the side of the casing. This produces that black grime you will see when you wipe down the valves, which is tiny particles of brass. As the grime builds up, it causes the valves to bind.

Now with old horns with worn valves, it is less of an issue because there is more room for the grime, but on any new horn, regardless of price (unless actually built so cheap the valves are loose - and I haven't seen that yet), you need to depress the valve reasonably straight. Otherwise, you will hour-glass the casings, making for a very expensive valve job for the next guy.
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Andy Cooper
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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2022 7:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your older horns should not really have a problem unless they are actually dented. It's probably a cleaning issue.

Clean your valves, valve casings and ports. Ultrasonic cleaning would probably be best but it's hard to justify for a Shopgoodwill horn. Dawn dishwashing detergent and a casing brush are fine for once a month cleaning but if you have sticking valves you need repeated swabbing with cheesecloth on a cleaning rod using something like Simple Green. Clean both the pistons , casings and ports until the cloth comes out clean.

Oil with Denis Wick oil with Teflon. Play for a while then wipe the piston(s). If the cloth is dirty, go through the entire process again. I think the Denis Wick oil may build up over time - a good thing for an old horn. I would not use it in a new high tolerance trumpet. I have also had good results with La Tromba 1 with silicone.

The off-axis test is how I tell if it's working. I frequently have to play one handed a lot and it's tough to have perfect alignment.
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zaferis
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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2022 7:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nope.. the benefit of "good" technique. Beyond musical and technical benefits, fewer valve issues both short and long term.
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cbtj51
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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2022 7:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andy Cooper wrote:

Oil with Denis Wick oil with Teflon. Play for a while then wipe the piston(s). If the cloth is dirty, go through the entire process again. I think the Denis Wick oil may build up over time - a good thing for an old horn. I would not use it in a new high tolerance trumpet.


Sorry for the slight "off-track", but I am interested in your statement, "may build up over time".

I have been using the Denis Wick product based upon the recommendation of a much trusted repair specialist since the non production of my preferred oil, Space Filler Ultimate II "for tight valves", that apparently became a victim of the covid debacle. I have not experienced anything unusual regarding build-up or residue during regular valve cleaning over the last year of using the Wick product. I must confess that I am a real stickler to keeping my horns in a very clean state mostly for playing platform consistency, so "regular" may have a different meaning in my application.

What are the "signs" of build up that you have experienced?

Very interested,

Mike
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Andy Cooper
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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2022 8:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cbtj51 wrote:


What are the "signs" of build up that you have experienced?

Mike


Positive as far as I'm concerned.-absolutely silky smooth on my Benge. When left in storage, and the oil has dried, the valves still move freely. When de-greased with a serious cleaner, problems return. Oil them up with Denis Wick - the problem goes away. therefore - a build up. I would only be concerned with ultra tight new horns. I think a thinner oil with no additives is better for the breaking in process.

I remember the Silicone valve oil problem of the 60's and Schilke trumpets. I think it was called Octave 8 or something like that. Everyone was using it until it started to cause sluggish valves. About that time there was a switch to Al Cass.
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cbtj51
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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2022 10:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andy Cooper wrote:
cbtj51 wrote:


What are the "signs" of build up that you have experienced?

Mike


Positive as far as I'm concerned.-absolutely silky smooth on my Benge.


Andy,

Thank you for the further insight!

My '71 Benge had developed a regular snag about halfway down the male leg of the 3rd valve slide. Nothing was visible or could be discerned by touch. I worked it and cleaned it over and over with little improvement. I ended up sending it to a local repair tech who, after working it for a while determined that removing brass might be the only solution, but recommended against it because of the intrinsic thin tubing. I took it home and started applying the Wick, working, wiping and reapplying. Almost miraculously, the slide freed up and stopped sticking! That was about 8 months ago, no problem since. I acquired a '71/'72 Benge about 200 serial numbers newer than my original Benge a couple of weeks ago with similar slide problems on 1st and 3rd and have pursued the same solution. The first slide now works great, the 3rd is much better, but still not to my liking. I think a little more time and "buildup" will get the desired effect as well. My only objection is the slight smell when first applied, but that is a minor aspect far outweighed by the obvious benefit.

Best wishes,

Mike
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2022 11:34 am    Post subject: Re: Pressing valves off axis Reply with quote

AndrewKennedyMusic wrote:
... One thing I’ve always noticed is how sensitive these cheap trumpets are to having the valves pressed off axis. What I mean is that unless the valves are pressed straight, with good technique, they tend to stick or become sluggish. ...

-------------------------------------
If the piston and casing have dimensional 'tight' spots it's likely to have metal-on-metal (lack of oil film) contact points - and those points are where the problems happen. The parts have to be made and assembled correctly.

Even with all the parts 'correct', strong off-axis pressing will cause trouble.
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2022 6:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Somethings to consider:

Why do you depress the valve piston off-axis?

If you are buying cheap, old trumpets with lots of use behind them, perhaps you are running into problems caused by wear and questionable maintenance.

Worn valves. For many years, I had a Benge 5X built in 1976. I used it in High School and college, then played only sporadically until about 2004. I wasn't diligent about cleaning the horn in the early days after marching band. When I restarted, I learned much more about brass instruments and became much more involved with general horn hygiene.

The valve pistons worked okay, then fantastically, then horrible in about three years. It took awhile to determine that they were worn and needed to be rebuilt. I had cleaned the horn, snaked the horn, tried all manner of oils both natural and synthetic. Finally, I took it to the Kanstul factory and had Zig rebuild the valves. It took a few tries to get things right.

During this process, the valves would work just fine in the hand, but hang up when I played. I think what was happening was that air was leaking around the pistons and pushing them sideways. my finger mechanics weren't helping, either. After the valves were re-plated and refitted, they were the best of any trumpet I've ever encountered. I never had any more trouble.
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