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Mouthpiece gap experiments and measurements



 
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Aj
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PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2022 11:48 pm    Post subject: Mouthpiece gap experiments and measurements Reply with quote

I am playing around with some mouthpieces trying to find the perfect combination (the holy grail) and decided to do some gap measurements. They are home measurements but I am really surprised at the differences. (Sorry no Bach Trumpet mpc in my collection atm). Comments are my humble quick impressions and I just tested C octaves and a 2 1/2 octave C scale, and then C up to high F to keep my comparison consistent.

Largest gaps into my 8310Z Gen 2 were Monettes. Smallest = Schilkes.

~Bach's Perfect 1/8 Gap~
3.175mm
0.125in

Yamaha 8310Z Gen 2
(receiver length 31 mm)


Schilke 14A4a
28.5mm insertion
2.5mm Gap
0.0984252in

Very long mouthpiece (longest)
A little flat on C 8va's, slots well above high C

Schilke 14B (brand new)
28
3mm
0.1181102

Very long mouthpiece
A little flat on C 8va's, slots well above high C


Gardinelli NY 6VM
27.5
3.5
0.1377953

V cup
Dull, less resistance, lower register nice and smooth

Schilke 14B (old)
27
4mm gap
0.1574803

doesn't fit well - wobbly
A little flat, slots well above, moves with pressure

Yamaha 14B4
27mm
4mm
0.1574803

old
Nice feel, Intonation issues, tone bit boring

Yamaha 14A4a-GP
27mm
4mm
0.1574803in

new
Flat on High C, loses core, harder work

Marcinkeiwicz Shew #2
26mm
5mm
0.1968504in

E*5, smallest cup and rim
A little flat on High C, even scale throughout, easy


Monette BLM S1
25.5mm
5.5mm
0.2165354in

newer Slap
In tune throughout, (less resistance and reponse)

Monette B6 (old)
25.5mm
5.5mm
0.2165354in

20 yo mpc, largest cup/feel
Flat on High C


Overall the Monnette BLM S1 wins for me (tone, intonation, ease) however it does have it's issues even after a few months of acclimation. Stamina concerns me when I cannot rest enough (Big Band gigs seem fine, long improv session not so much). And response is low so I struggle to play quiet on it and feel it effects my lip intrusion. Anyone else have issues with Monette and stamina?
Secondly, Schilke's seem to 'work' better than Yamahas with intonation, resonance and tone. You would think Yamaha could match their own trumpets better?


Last edited by Aj on Fri Jan 06, 2023 5:41 pm; edited 2 times in total
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delano
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PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2022 1:29 am    Post subject: Re: Mouthpiece gap experiments and measurements Reply with quote

Aj wrote:

Secondly, Shilke's seem to 'work' better than Yamahas with intonation, resonance and tone. You would think Yamaha could match their own trumpets better?


First, the name is still Schilke.
Second, when the horn is ok then the intonation, resonance and tone are for 95% created by the player and in some, maybe a lot of cases the experienced differences between mouthpieces are formed only in the head of the player, obviously often seriously influenced by the price they paid for the mouthpieces.

And yes, I have no trust in playing around with mouthpieces nor with all kinds of dubious measurements in general. In my experience it costs a lot of time and work to really 'understand' a mouthpiece.
And of course some mouthpieces facilitate a certain sound better than another one but I doubt seriously that a mouthpiece can have a dull or boring (?) sound of itself.

BTW I play Yamaha mouthpieces on my Yamaha trumpet (great combination), on my Getzen cornet (idem), on my CB pocket trumpet (idem) and is second choice on my rotary after a Breslmair (which may be the best mouthpieces around in general).
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Aj
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Posts: 79

PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2022 4:29 am    Post subject: Re: Mouthpiece gap experiments and measurements Reply with quote

delano wrote:
Aj wrote:

Secondly, Schilke's seem to 'work' better than Yamahas with intonation, resonance and tone. You would think Yamaha could match their own trumpets better?


And of course some mouthpieces facilitate a certain sound better than another one but I doubt seriously that a mouthpiece can have a dull or boring (?) sound of itself.


Thanks for your input. The notes I made were during my experimentation can be taken with a pinch of salt. Not at all blaming an inanimate object for the tone. I quite like the feel of the 14B4 and want it to work for me.
The post was more about the wide variety of gaps from 3 different manufacturers. With all the chat about 'the gap' these days I was hoping for some insight or experience related to that and if a 'gap' change would change a mouthpiece. I mean Monnette's gap in my Yamaha receiver is huge compared to Schilke.
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Last edited by Aj on Sun May 22, 2022 12:37 am; edited 1 time in total
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delano
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PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2022 4:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Schilke?
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Andy Cooper
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PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2022 7:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gap is only part of the measurement. The exit wall thickness has something to do with how broad or slotty the mouthpiece feels. I believe all Warburton backbores are chamfered at the end so the wall thickness at the end is all the same.

You might want to research Stomvi - they have some charts on how gap affects intonation. Keep in mind that throat size and backbore construction also affect intonation.
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Aj
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PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2022 12:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

delano wrote:
Schilke?


No worries, mate!
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Aj
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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2022 5:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looks like Jason Harrelson has just answered some of my thoughts about Yamaha mouthpieces and my gap experiences. Wish I could change the gap....
https://youtu.be/FN2F0owCVjs
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delano
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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2022 7:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aj wrote:
Looks like Jason Harrelson has just answered some of my thoughts about Yamaha mouthpieces and my gap experiences. Wish I could change the gap....
https://youtu.be/FN2F0owCVjs


If you like to be busy with the gap and with changing the gap, the Reeves sleeves may be something for you:

https://bobreeves.com/blog/the-history-of-the-trumpet-mouthpiece-gap/

I really enjoyed Jason's clip, very entertaining, but I take this kind of comparisons not with a grain of salt but with loads of it. FYI a lot of orchestral players seem to choose a C-cupped mouthpiece because they want a certain brightness to their sound. I never played a 16C GP but I play daily a 14C4 of Yamaha and I can assure you that it has a deeper C cup and plays, probably for that reason, much warmer (if that means less bright) than the C cups of Bach, Klier, Warburton, Curry and more of the same diameter.
BTW, the Bach 3C is one of the most popular mouthpieces ever and I can assure you that it is much brighter than the Yamaha 14C4 so what are we talking about?
If you want a darker (warmer?) sound than the C cup can give you, try the Yamaha D cup, you will be surprised (something like the Bach B cup).

The remarks about the rim are even more weird. Ever tried a Warburton?
And that he has problems slotting the notes on a Yamaha mouthpiece, ask James Morrison, that guy seems to be able to slot much more notes on his Yamaha 14B and does it perfectly.

Don't believe things because they suit you. That Yamaha-middle-of-the-road-small-talk including the example of the Yamaha 16C GP, is probably chosen by JH because that kind of feelings seem to be some sort of common sense here on TH especially by the Bach mob and the expectation could be that it will therefore fall in fertile ground.

But I don't want to stop you from buying your 250 and 300 dollar mouthpieces. There is Monette, Lotus, AR, the new ACM serial and more to spend your money and if the feeling of the price of a mp make you play better, so be it.


Last edited by delano on Mon May 23, 2022 11:25 am; edited 3 times in total
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2022 8:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

delano, why do you keep "beating around he bush"? Just come out and say what you really mean.
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Last edited by kehaulani on Mon May 23, 2022 11:31 am; edited 1 time in total
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Voltrane
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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2022 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aj wrote:
« Looks like Jason Harrelson has just answered some of my thoughts about Yamaha mouthpieces « . Good luck man.
Fortunately I play a Yamaha 16c -GP and I can tell you it is a great mouthpiece. But of course I am only an « average » player that plays an « average » Xeno 8335 RGS and I do not deserve an Harrelson trumpet 🙄
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Aj
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2023 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1 year later….
Despite the direct “encouragement” I got above, I humbly continued on my safari and moved into experimenting with Reeves mouthpieces and sleeves. Lots of money, but have settled on the Reeves 42 sizes with a #5 sleeve on my Bach. I discovered closer to #4 worked well on the Yamaha.

42sM692s #5 for Big band/Commercial work is a dream, and yes I play better because it gives me so much more confidence and nice overtones. Thanks Ralph Pyl for selling me that one. (See Otherside of the Bell podcast for Ralph’s interview)

42C (standard #4) gap seems ok for my daily driver and small group improv on my Bach. Id like to sleeve it, but find the ‘fluff’ that I get from the larger gap ok for these settings.

If you are happy with one mpc or think gap experimentation is a waste of time I dare you to try a sleeved mouthpiece with a 6.5 sleeve (schilke) followed by a 3.5 sleeve (bigger gap). You will notice the difference then. You will then believe. My Conns, Yamaha and Bach all work slightly better with different sleeves.

As for a mouthpiece making you play better…..? Yes it can….as it inspired me, I practised more, then I got better. Better than yesterday is all I ask.

Thanks for your replies, I hope someone finds this helpful one day. Happy Practising.
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2023 1:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aj wrote:
1 year later….
Despite the direct “encouragement” I got above, I humbly continued on my safari and moved into experimenting with Reeves mouthpieces and sleeves. Lots of money, but have settled on the Reeves 42 sizes with a #5 sleeve on my Bach. I discovered closer to #4 worked well on the Yamaha.

This is interesting, as I prefer a James R New 6 sleeve on my Bach, but a James R New 6.5 sleeve on my Yamaha. I am specifically referring to the trend of you using a lower number sleeve on your Yamaha than your Bach, when I've dialled in my gap the other way round.

My understanding is that Yamaha mouthpieces insert around 1mm further than Bach mouthpieces. I prefer a smaller gap, so all my mouthpieces insert further, but I have the same trend as playing a Bach mouthpiece on a Bach trumpet inserting x distance, and a Yamaha mouthpiece on a Yamaha trumpet inserting x +1mm, by using a James R New 6 sleeve on my Bach and James R New 6.5 sleeve on my Yamaha (the difference in insertion amount is actually 1/32" so 0.79mm rather than a full 1mm. Obviously you have experimented and dialled in your gaps, finding the opposite. This must be right for you on your trumpets, but it is interesting to me that it appears to be the opposite way round to what I would expect.


42sM692s #5 for Big band/Commercial work is a dream, and yes I play better because it gives me so much more confidence and nice overtones. Thanks Ralph Pyl for selling me that one. (See Otherside of the Bell podcast for Ralph’s interview)

42C (standard #4) gap seems ok for my daily driver and small group improv on my Bach. Id like to sleeve it, but find the ‘fluff’ that I get from the larger gap ok for these settings.

If you are happy with one mpc or think gap experimentation is a waste of time I dare you to try a sleeved mouthpiece with a 6.5 sleeve (schilke) followed by a 3.5 sleeve (bigger gap). You will notice the difference then. You will then believe. My Conns, Yamaha and Bach all work slightly better with different sleeves.

As for a mouthpiece making you play better…..? Yes it can….as it inspired me, I practised more, then I got better. Better than yesterday is all I ask.

Thanks for your replies, I hope someone finds this helpful one day. Happy Practising.

All very interesting, thanks very much.

Take care and best wishes

Lou

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Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
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