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NigelC New Member
Joined: 26 Apr 2022 Posts: 2 Location: England
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Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2022 2:19 pm Post subject: Another Come Back player. I need help! |
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Hi all,
Started playing again after 32 years and I find myself bewildered and not sure what to do!
Quick history; Played seriously from the ages of 12 to 28, ended up just about grade 7, (sorry guys, that’s UK speak and I don’t know what that would be in other countries), played in many brass bands and military bands as well as dance bands. I was nowhere near a professional trumpeter, but I think I made it into the intermediate category. Besides, Mum said I was good so that must be true!
With a great new trumpet in my hands, I started practicing again. I know I shouldn’t, but I ran up and down a few scales and could hit top G with a great tone, but on the second run up the G cracked and on the next run I couldn’t get top F. Don’t nag me, I won’t do it again without building up.
At this point I reflected on my limitations when I reached my best point many years ago and decided to investigate what I need to do to be better, do I need to change the way I do everything, do I start again? I turned to Doctor Google which led me to Youtube, you probably know the rest. So many experts, so many different views, what a nightmare.
But I know what I want fixed, range and stamina.
This leads me to where I would like your views.
For at least a 10 year period I played for around 18 hours a week, yet my stamina and range never improved, by the end of a concert or practice sessions I could not play above E but I never got above top C. Clearly, its not just about practicing, but what I am missing? Watching Youtube I have seen a lot about people playing too much and damaging their muscles and sometimes stopping them playing for days or more. Is it possible that my problem is that most of my practicing was playing in bands? For example, every Monday was a 2 hour practice where my lips were shot by the end. Orchestra on Tuesday and Wednesday, Brass Band again on Friday and another band Sunday, and that does not includes gigs.
Was my embouchure damaged all of my playing days because I played to the point of nothing above top E and pressing like hell nearly everyday of the year! If so, then by stop putting too much pressure on my top lip should solve my range and stamina problems? I always recovered for the next day and I never had discomfort.
Or is it your view that I should start again by choosing an expert on Youtube and follow his/her lessons to the letter?
Thanks,
Nigel _________________ Never 2 Old |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8914 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2022 2:26 pm Post subject: |
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Learning can be hard. Unlearning bad habits is even harder. I'd invest in at least a few lessons. And I wouldn't settle for just any old teacher, I'd seek out a reputable pro. You won't regret it. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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Dayton Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Mar 2013 Posts: 2041 Location: USA
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Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2022 3:03 pm Post subject: |
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Welcome back to trumpet playing! A few (or more) lessons with a good teacher -- along with diligent and intelligent practice -- will help you maximize progress, expand your potential, and avoid frustration in the future. Good luck! |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9027 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2022 3:07 pm Post subject: |
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Information on this and other internet sites can have really good stuff. Unfortunately, there's also a fair share of people just regurgitating what they heard or read with little personal experience, down to plain snake oil. One needs to use the information with discrimination, and I wonder if you have that, at this point.
If not, get a good teacher/coach with a record of good results. He/she will guide you regarding what materials to get and provide you with a good second opinion on what you do.
Remember, this information is not a physics treatise. Don't get distracted by all the noise. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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jhatpro Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Mar 2002 Posts: 10204 Location: The Land Beyond O'Hare
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Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2022 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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Comebacking is not easy. Usually it takes place as life has started to whittle away at our strength, flexibiliy, lung capacity, and more.
As mentioned above, finding a good teacher is paramount - ideally somone with experience helping comebackers get their chops back and then dedicating yourself do doing what the teacher recommends and not lapseing into aimless blowing
And by all means abide by the familiar rest as much as you play rule, remembering that this does not mean play 30 minutes and then take a nap for an hour. It means play four bars, rest eight bars and so on for ten or twelve minute, then do something else for awhile but try to do as many of these sessions a day as you can manage. Others may find this too limiting but it works for me.
Hope you get on track and start having fun. If you find you're not, there's a lot of good things in life that have nothing to do with trumpet playing. _________________ Jim Hatfield
"The notes are there - find them.” Mingus
2021 Martinus Geelan Custom
2005 Bach 180-72R
1965 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1946 Conn Victor
1998 Scodwell flugel
1986 Bach 181 cornet
1954 Conn 80A cornet
2002 Getzen bugle |
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Notlem Veteran Member
Joined: 20 Nov 2021 Posts: 127
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Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2022 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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I have to whole heartedly agree with kehaulani on this one.
I came back after 7 years off just this last November. My brother suggested it as I was having and am still have a nerve issue on the left side of my skull and my jaw was tight. For the life of me I could not play a scale in tune, much les a single note in tune for long.
After a week it did not get better, I could not find a comfortable spot for my mouthpiece, everything was foreign. I know teeth move as we age and we lose some hearing to protect our heart rate and blood pressure by not hearing our better half’s nag about whatever honeydew list that was not completed or why I have a new trumpet mouthpiece or whatever. However, my hearing is not awful and I still have all my teeth, so it as decision time!
I quickly looked up all YouTube voodo and revisited all those methods I tried when younger. Information on how to setup my chops and that stuff was all over the place and no level of youtube or gizmo was going to get me back in playing shape. So…. Quit or swallow my pride and find a respected teacher…
After research I reached out to one willing to give me a single lesson to help me get going. Best money I ever spent! Got me to a good consistent starting point! We got along great and he wanted me to setup another lesson to check progress…
Fast forward.. I still take regular lessons from that teacher,each lesson is with its weight in gold. i found my path once and am finding again through guidance. Don’t settle for the guy down the street, spend the extra on the Pro that has helped many work though this stuff. In the end it is a journey with experimentation, but the journey is the fun part!
Welcome back! _________________ -marc melton
48 years young
Comeback player since November 2021!
Georgetown, TX
2022 Bach 190s37 artist select
1976 Schilke X3lb
Jupiter 846l black lacquer |
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NigelC New Member
Joined: 26 Apr 2022 Posts: 2 Location: England
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Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2022 11:49 pm Post subject: A techaer it is |
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Thanks all,
Your comments are just what I needed, I hadn’t considered finding a teacher but as all of you have said that, I have no doubt it is the way to go.
Youtube Voodoo! Great comment and exactly how I have been feeling after viewing so many videos.
Thanks
Nige _________________ Never 2 Old |
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HaveTrumpetWillTravel Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Jan 2018 Posts: 1021 Location: East Asia
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Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2022 1:28 am Post subject: |
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As a comeback player, I played on my own for a while and then have periodically had teachers. I'd say my tone, ease of play, and musicality has improved, but my range has not improved a lot and I'm far from being a professional It is a ton of fun. Enjoy it and keep improving. For me finding easy lyrical pieces was a good way to start (hymns, jazz standards) but you sound like you had quite a lot of experience before. |
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zaferis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Nov 2011 Posts: 2330 Location: Beavercreek, OH
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Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2022 3:49 am Post subject: |
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I agree whole heartedly with the notion of gettting a good teacher to work with in-person, on a regular, continuing basis. It is, and will be, a process.
As written earlier - learing takes time; correcting a faulty approach/habit takes more time, much more time, dedication, and patience.
I will add that, IMO, what we think we do (our self-analysis), regarding our playing (from embouchure, breathing, practicing, etc) is often straight up wrong. This is the reason why the "how to play.." videos don't help as many folks as you'd think. _________________ Freelance Performer/Educator
Adjunct Professor
Bach Trumpet Endorsing Artist
Retired Air Force Bandsman
Last edited by zaferis on Wed Apr 27, 2022 12:45 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3306 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2022 7:06 am Post subject: Re: Another Come Back player. I need help! |
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NigelC wrote: | ...
Was my embouchure damaged all of my playing days because I played to the point of nothing above top E and pressing like hell nearly everyday of the year! If so, then by stop putting too much pressure on my top lip should solve my range and stamina problems? I always recovered for the next day and I never had discomfort. ... |
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Welcome back, and good luck!
I doubt that you have any 'embouchure damage', but I do recommend that you review your embouchure technique (rim pressure, etc.).
Good technique is a learned skill, and does NOT depend on excess rim pressure or pain tolerance - a good teacher should be able to guide / demonstrate / explain the aspects of technique - the 'teaching method' that is used depends on the teacher and how well the 'student' responds. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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wilder Veteran Member
Joined: 27 Jun 2020 Posts: 341 Location: NYC
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Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2022 8:57 pm Post subject: Re: Another Come Back player. I need help! |
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NigelC wrote: | Hi all,
Started playing again after 32 years and I find myself bewildered and not sure what to do!
Quick history; Played seriously from the ages of 12 to 28, ended up just about grade 7, (sorry guys, that’s UK speak and I don’t know what that would be in other countries), played in many brass bands and military bands as well as dance bands. I was nowhere near a professional trumpeter, but I think I made it into the intermediate category. Besides, Mum said I was good so that must be true!
With a great new trumpet in my hands, I started practicing again. I know I shouldn’t, but I ran up and down a few scales and could hit top G with a great tone, but on the second run up the G cracked and on the next run I couldn’t get top F. Don’t nag me, I won’t do it again without building up.
At this point I reflected on my limitations when I reached my best point many years ago and decided to investigate what I need to do to be better, do I need to change the way I do everything, do I start again? I turned to Doctor Google which led me to Youtube, you probably know the rest. So many experts, so many different views, what a nightmare.
But I know what I want fixed, range and stamina.
This leads me to where I would like your views.
For at least a 10 year period I played for around 18 hours a week, yet my stamina and range never improved, by the end of a concert or practice sessions I could not play above E but I never got above top C. Clearly, its not just about practicing, but what I am missing? Watching Youtube I have seen a lot about people playing too much and damaging their muscles and sometimes stopping them playing for days or more. Is it possible that my problem is that most of my practicing was playing in bands? For example, every Monday was a 2 hour practice where my lips were shot by the end. Orchestra on Tuesday and Wednesday, Brass Band again on Friday and another band Sunday, and that does not includes gigs.
Was my embouchure damaged all of my playing days because I played to the point of nothing above top E and pressing like hell nearly everyday of the year! If so, then by stop putting too much pressure on my top lip should solve my range and stamina problems? I always recovered for the next day and I never had discomfort.
Or is it your view that I should start again by choosing an expert on Youtube and follow his/her lessons to the letter?
Thanks,
Nigel | Hi. Get a good teacher and practice 6 hours a day for 3 years. you will be happy with your playing. And stay off the internet. jw |
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steve0930 Veteran Member
Joined: 07 May 2018 Posts: 191
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Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2022 9:27 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Nigel
9 comments - all say Get a Good Teacher. There is another side of the coin - you are the best Teacher.
I had 5 lessons with 5 highly respected teachers and they each had their own take
- more Air
- hear the sound
- change nothing your embouchure is fine
- lips more open
- don't think about your Lips
Through Trail and error and 2-4 hrs practice a day I have worked out a Low Air Closed Aperture Upstream approach is working for me, for now. C above staff has gone from Not attainable to Easy in last 6 months. So I think the more Teachers you meet the better - all the ideas floating around on the internet - what a WONDERFUL resource we have in today's technology. But at the end of the day you're the Umpire - Learning the Trumpet is your show.
And I guess all Great Teachers get that:
Jeanne Pocius - Trumpeting by Nature, p230
Quote: | It is the hard work of practicing and pedagogy that enables us to produce the best of playing, the best of music. Be your own best teacher. And share the gift of creating that inner self-teacher with your own students! |
Cheers, good luck and stay safe Steve _________________ My Number 1 supporter
http://langdons.com/images/langdon-image.jpg |
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cgaiii Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 Jun 2017 Posts: 1548 Location: Virginia USA
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Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2022 6:06 am Post subject: |
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Welcome back to trumpet playing. You have many good suggestions here. I tend to be of the find a teacher as a shortcut school, though I was self-taught for many years.
Make it fun. Play with a sound you like--find one if you do not have an image already. Be organized and systematic. One person on this forum once said, and sorry that I do not remember who, pick something you suck at, focus on that in all your playing for a month. Then pick something else. There is some wisdom there. Do not try to do everything at once and make firm goals. _________________ Bb: Schilke X3L AS SP, Yamaha YTR-6335S
C: Schilke CXL, Kanstul 1510-2
Picc: Kanstul 920
Bb Bugle: Kanstul
Bb Pocket: Manchester Brass
Flugel: Taylor Standard
Bass Trumpet: BAC Custom
Natural Tr: Custom Haas replica by Nikolai Mänttäri Morales |
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LWknight80 New Member
Joined: 21 May 2022 Posts: 1 Location: Michigan
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Posted: Sun May 22, 2022 8:19 am Post subject: |
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I was a come back player after taking 30 years off. I also had endurance issues as well as overall playing. Found a professional player who also specialized in come back players. He fixed my breathing in a few lessons and just by doing that all of the issues I was having corrected themselves. I highly suggest finding the right instructor. Good Luck. |
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gwood66 Veteran Member
Joined: 05 Jan 2016 Posts: 301 Location: South of Chicago
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Posted: Sun May 22, 2022 1:20 pm Post subject: |
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I have been on the comeback trail for about 6 years. I think there is validity to getting a teacher early on. I do not think you can make progress on range and endurance if most of your playing is in a band setting. It is possible that you could have had overuse syndrome however it is more likely that your approach was off.
There are prominent Youtubers that offer advice and videos. There are nuggets of good information littered all over youtube in the form of podcasts and masterclasses. While helpful, they are not a replacement for lessons. I am not sure I have come across anyone that presents a full lesson in a video. They are really more tips and answers to questions. I have found Bryan Davis videos the most helpful overall. Check out his A to Zed series.
Good luck with your comeback. I hope you get it figured out. _________________ Gary Wood (comeback player with no street cred)
GR 66M/66MS/66**
Bach Strad 37
Getzen 3052
Yamaha 6345 |
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