Help Playing Louder

[cheiden]

I've never been the strongest player and now I find myself in a wind ensemble where I struggle to be heard over the group. This makes for way too much blasting on my part and the predictable hit on my endurance.

My current setup is a Bach 1.5C with a slightly smaller rim married to a ML Bach 43/43. I've experimented with using a Schilke Symphony M3 and a Bach 6 and while both allow me to player louder neither produce a sound that projects as much as I'd like and both are taxing to play.

In all generality does this point to the need for a bigger drill or bigger backbore? My limited success with the Bach 6 makes me want to try a shallower V cup and I was thinking about trying an ACB TA1. Is that any better a choice? Anything else likely to help? I've considered looking for more of a lead piece, not the usuall choice for a wind ensemble, but I've never been able to play anything too shallow.

I welcome any suggestions. Thx.
_________________
"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart

[kehaulani]

No doubt you'll get a bunch of mouthpiece advice so let me concentrate on something else-sound concept.

It's possible to be blowing your guts out and still not match the lead/section. I know, I've done it. There is a tendency to play too spread a sound when playing loudly. You might try concentrating on a more focused sound. Instead of thinking of your sound filling a 360 degree projection, concentrate on a more focused sound. Maybe a corkscrew drilling out towards our receiver.

One volume exercise I got from a teacher who had studied with Schilke is, I think. page 125. It's playing a note, then the next down, return to the first, down to the next, back up again, etc. But instead of playing it fast, play each tone -no rhythm- as loudly as you can.

When all else fails. . a 13A4A, LOL.
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"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird

Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn

[bach_again]

Very possible you are dulling your sound over blowing.

Resonance is key, overtones. Probably the loudest player I have ever heard is Bryan Davis. He barely looks like he is working. He turned to me on a rehearsal I was fortunate to sit in on and absolutely crushes a Cat Anderson style solo. He turns to me "did it look like I was working hard?" "no" "I wasn't".

If you can back off and figure out a more efficient approach, I think you will be happier long term. Peter Bond's book "The Singing Trumpet" is conceptually amazing - check that out!! Find that ring in your sound. Then you don't have to work half as hard
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https://youtu.be/iLVMRvw5RRk

Michael Barkley Quartet - Portals:
https://michaelbarkley.bandcamp.com/album/portals

The best movie trumpet solo?
https://youtu.be/OnCnTA6toMU

[Tom LeCompte]

Forte means "strong". Think about having a strong tone, and let the volume follow rather than concentrating on volume first. Think of volume as the eefct, not the cause: or better still, a side effect rather than the target.

[Jaw04]

Work on your resonance and efficiency, that's what we all have to constantly do. It could mean fixing some posture things. It could mean opening and/or relaxing your aperture. It could mean using more air. It could mean using less air!

The main thing is you have to figure it out with diligent listening and practicing. Equipment can definitely help but your ears and brain are the most important tools for getting your sound rich, full, and projecting. Lots of thoughtful experimentation.

[Andy Cooper]

[plankowner110]

[cheiden]

To clarify, it’s not a problem of hearing myself. The conductor can’t hear me well enough and continues to ask for more.
_________________
"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart

[GeorgeB]

Hmmm...boy, that must be some special kind of conductor to be able to single out one trumpet player while a full orchestra is playing and say he can't hear you. Not saying it's impossible but....
George
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GeorgeB
1960s King Super 20 Silversonic
2016 Manchester Brass Custom
1938-39 Olds Recording
1942 Buescher 400 Bb trumpet
1952 Selmer Paris 21 B
1999 Conn Vintage One B flat trumpet
2020 Getzen 490 Bb
1962 Conn Victor 5A cornet

[delano]

The hardware seems to be ok so it's probably an embouchure thing. Ever tried to play a little lower in the mouthpiece?

edit: I forgot, a bigger throat can help like a #25 (3.81 mm) or #24 (3.88 mm). Even a #25 will make a lot of difference. A bigger bb is questionable as it will change sound and projection.

[jhatpro]

Bigger breath and smaller mouthpiece.

I was a 1.5 guy and a shallow breather. An Austin TA-1 top with a Legends T backbore worked wonders for me.

Now I have to be careful I don’t overpower the section.
_________________
Jim Hatfield

"The notes are there - find them.” Mingus

2021 Martinus Geelan Custom
2005 Bach 180-72R
1965 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1946 Conn Victor
1998 Scodwell flugel
1986 Bach 181 cornet
1954 Conn 80A cornet
2002 Getzen bugle

[JayKosta]

Have you previously played 'main melody lines' in similar size ensembles and NOT had that problem?

This might not apply to your situation but, some players seem to hold back because they want to blend into the sound - and want to not have their part be distinctly noticeable. That can be fine for harmony and texture, but the 'interesting' notes do need to be heard and noticed.

Use the needed loudness to be heard in the last audience row at the appropriate level.
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Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.

[kramergfy]

I agree with Andy above; I’d try a Bach 37/25 and see if that helps. Much more focus and center with that horn than a 43/43, and more resistance appropriate with a larger C cup mouthpiece.

Aside from that, I believe trying to model your sound after someone like Maurice Murphy should be helpful. Full, centered, brilliant and effortlessly powerful; crackling electricity. All that stuff.
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"I'm 73 and I'm still learning." - Maurice Murphy

Thread killer.

[abontrumpet]

Generally you aren't going to get massively more volume from equipment changes. However, at a distance, equipment can aid in a few more decibels.

Easy fix would be getting obstacles out of you way, the easiest one being the music stand as well as getting your trumpet not pointing at the back of somebody. If you're making a great sound and the audience can see your bell, they will have a better chance at being able to hear you.

If you're going to go the equipment route: see if a different trumpet makes a significant difference, if not, you can stick to yours. I wouldn't drill a bigger hole (would make a dull sound duller). Shallower would aid in those cutting overtones if you cannot rely on sheer volume.

In general, getting a powerful sound is more about getting out of your own way (lips) than pushing or trying harder. Jaw04 has some great advice.

[Aj]

Without hearing you play I would suggest volume comes from resonance in the body as Greg Spence (Mystery to Mastery) taught me.

After I learnt to 'hum, sing, play' from Greg, my resonance opened right up. Big sound, without much effort, so much easier to play too.

HUM loudly - MMMM AHHH OOO and recognize the feeling in the body. Try to get that 'humming feeling' when you play.

Greg kind of explains it here, but I had lessons...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQXCPZnPxgM&t=16s

You may also need to play with a more open aperture and work on a straightening your airstream which Greg advocates. I'll leave it up to the experts to argue the pros and cons of open or closed (lips buzzing).

Failing all that... drill a bigger hole in ya mouthpiece.
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Mr Inbetween

[Andy Cooper]

[X200]

I played tuba in a community band where the conductor claimed that I didn't play loud enough. I told him that was all the volume I was ever going to comfortably (and musically) have and suggested having the entire band play at a reasonable level. It worked like a charm and sounded better according to my audience members.

I'll bet the OP and their equipment are just fine. Many conductors fail to recognize that live groups or sections within are almost always too loud.

[cheiden]

[cheiden]

[cheiden]