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Help identify this horn?



 
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GoingRover
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Joined: 21 May 2022
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Location: Chandler, AZ

PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2022 9:22 am    Post subject: Help identify this horn? Reply with quote

I grabbed bFlat horn from a guy who was going to toss it. It's been horribly abused but still plays a very sweet tone. Weird. It looks to be a Bach style student horn based on the twin main slide supports, spit valves, fixed third valve slide ring etc.

not sure how to post pics. I'm interested in the maker, but more interested in the year of manufacture.

Here's where I get lost:
The bell is marked "Harmony, Since 1832" I can't find anything besides a few references to a Bach model that may or may not have been marketed with a Harmony verbiage.

It has a serial number on the mouthpiece receiver tube of 38671702. ?? Most horns terminate at 6 digit serial numbers. (possible its a Bach 38 bell with a serial of 671702. ?)

There is a very worn 3 digit mark on the 2nd valve body that looks to be 151 or L51. It's hard to read. also the 5 is sub to the 1. Does that make sense? it's 1 then the 5 is a half line lower then the third 1 is even with the first. It looks like a poor stamping??

It's brass and has silver (Chrome/Nickel?) accents at the slide heads and joinery points.

The brass has been worn so badly that I assume someone played this thing with sweaty hands for hours on end for years on end, or they left it in the yard, or it's older than I originally thought.

Anywho, I'm good with metal work and I intend to repair this thing and noodle around the house with it.
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Divitt Trumpets
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Joined: 11 Aug 2015
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PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2022 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's very common for cheap import trumpets to have very long serial numbers on the mouthpiece receiver.
Your description makes me think it is Chinese or Indian. Some of those can look like old horns, but aren't.
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HaveTrumpetWillTravel
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Joined: 30 Jan 2018
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PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2022 4:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You could do a google image search for "Harmony trumpet." I believe it's a name that's been used different times. There's a pretty good Harmonie brand out of Taiwan. Is the engraving real engraving (actually carved into the brass) or is it done by laser? That's another tip off for good vs cheap instrument.
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GoingRover
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Joined: 21 May 2022
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Location: Chandler, AZ

PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2022 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

All good info and much appreciated! I did many searches for Harmony and came up empty, but I didn't find anything out of Taiwan so I'm going to try harder.

The "Harmony..." is definitely engraved and not laser etched.

I guess a more specific question is this: How much time would you estimate a brass instrument needs for the brass to wear through and become pitted? My old student horn was an Olds (1980) and I played it hours a day every day for at least 10 years and it was still pristine. That's why I think this may be old, not due to its construction details.
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2022 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GoingRover wrote:
I guess a more specific question is this: How much time would you estimate a brass instrument needs for the brass to wear through and become pitted? My old student horn was an Olds (1980) and I played it hours a day every day for at least 10 years and it was still pristine. That's why I think this may be old, not due to its construction details.

Pitting doesn’t prove age. My silver plated trumpet from high school was pitted through the silver and deeply into the valve casings and the contact points just a few years after I purchased it new. Also, I have read stories on here about red rot occurring very quickly on new horns.
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GoingRover
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Joined: 21 May 2022
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Location: Chandler, AZ

PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2022 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LittleRusty wrote:
Pitting doesn’t prove age. [...] I have read stories on here about red rot occurring very quickly on new horns.


Interesting. Thanks for that tidbit!
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2022 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Waiting for today’s NBA playoff so I had time to dredge up a few examples of fast red rot.
Red rot in new Bach 43B leadpipe
Red rot on new trumpet!?!?!?!?
red rot
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GoingRover
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Joined: 21 May 2022
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Location: Chandler, AZ

PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2022 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks so much! Good reading! Yup, with my full magnification specs on I believe that this old horn does indeed have red rot! Interesting. Still going to clean it up, remove the lacquer and re-solder a joint or two and just enjoy it.

Hope your team wins!
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2022 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's almost certainly a random stencil horn made in some unknown factory at some point - probably in China, India, or maybe Eastern Europe depending on when it was made.

The chance of figuring out who made it, where, and when are almost zero.

There are thousands, maybe millions of these random stencil out there made by various factories. There's almost no path to figuring out who made it unless you happen to have one that was made by a reputable maker - as Conn, Buescher and others did this decades and decades ago - in which case people might be able to recognize various details and structures that line up with instruments made by that maker. You can post pictures and maybe get some pointers, but almost always, these threads go nowhere because 99.9% of these horns weren't made by a well-known maker.

Even IF you manage to figure out where or who made it, companies often didn't use their standard serial number sequence for stencils.

Finally, non well known factories that made 99.9% of the rando stencils out there didn't keep records for serial numbers, the ones that did aren't published on the web, and most of the records that were kept have been lost over the years.

Sorry to be a Debbie Downer, just the reality.
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GoingRover
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PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2022 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not a downer. I appreciate you taking the time to respond! I believe you are correct. I was just hoping because it's the spitting image of a Bach that I could find the copy-cat company and get some details. It'll still make a nice coffee table, sofa horn. Grab and play type thing, where I treat my real horn like a princess. lol.
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HaveTrumpetWillTravel
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PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2022 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's a red harmony trumpet that is quite Bach-like on Reverb. It looks like it also has the numbers on the receiver.
https://reverb.com/item/35699304-harmony-trumpet-red-gloss

Here's the same store selling one in purple:
https://reverb.com/item/35699539-harmony-trumpet-purple

Here's one in brass that sold on ebay:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/275294145457?hash=item4018cf4bb1%3Ag%3AqjUAAOSwGnpiJl%7EC&nma=true&si=5a7H9XLwbyuSuNI927htl5616MU%253D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

Here's a vintage Harmony (different maker from above) on ebay:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/264848784030?hash=item3daa37ba9e:g:fOkAAOSwKk9fTBnZ
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GoingRover
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Joined: 21 May 2022
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Location: Chandler, AZ

PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2022 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have Trumpet!!
Look at you! Doin' the Sloothin' (I watch too much Simpsons)!
Thanks so much. I will say the Ebay horn for $65 is exactly what I have. Except mine was free.

I did get a response from Harmony Music Co. They said, "The brand name has been purchased a couple of times since the original company went out of business in the 70s. The trumpet, along with other band instruments, would have likely been sold at a JC Penney or similar big box store, though we don't know much else."

Thanks again!
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