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On reverting back to being just an occasional “lurker.”



 
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2022 3:47 am    Post subject: On reverting back to being just an occasional “lurker.” Reply with quote

Been around this place since 2007, and IMO, it’s changed. There have always been a few “keyboard warriors” who, for whatever reason, believed their opinions to be in the “expert” category, when in fact they were far from it, and that their opinions should take precedence.

But things seem different today, or maybe I’m just different, and a lot less tolerant. There seem to be increasing numbers of pseudo experts here, and many of the people with real credibility have left, or at least don’t post often, or ever.

Someone who is one of those credentialed pros said “….it’s a shame how far this forum has fallen…”, or something close to that. I have to agree. It’s really unfortunate.

Brad
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Last edited by Brad361 on Thu May 26, 2022 6:19 am; edited 3 times in total
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Gottfried Reiche
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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2022 3:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yep.

This forum has become largely just an informational tidbit. There's no quality content here anymore, nor has there been for quite some time.

GR
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2022 5:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gottfried Reiche wrote:
Yep.

This forum has become largely just an informational tidbit. There's no quality content here anymore, nor has there been for quite some time.

GR


Just my opinion: I don’t necessarily think there’s NO good information here, but it’s just being cluttered up by a fairly small number of people, many of whom obviously don’t have many, if any, credentials.
Surprisingly, even though that number is small, their noise level isn’t.

So with that, going forward I won’t be adding to that clutter here.

Brad
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TKSop
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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2022 9:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've wound up posting in an on/off fashion for years...

I think part of it is simply the way forums in general are going, and in some ways the way our societies are increasingly going... People are becoming increasingly willing to see themselves as experts when they are not, and increasingly willing to both be rude go total strangers AND obscenely quick to take offense at things that clearly aren't intended to cause such.

It's sad, this place has had some great posters and posts over the years, but this toxic style of posting is something that's very hard to fix - ESPECIALLY with software as outdated as this place uses...
Whilst I'm not normally one to bemoan the dinosaur backend, something as simple as being able to denote accounts as "industry expert" or whatever. Likewise the ability to thumbs up/down posts and/or merit points style systems to show the expert voices that nobody is falling for what the numpties are posting would probably help show people that you would want to have posting that they ARE appreciated and not wasting their time, etc.

All sorts of proactive change over the years probably would've helped but this place simply continues existing in the form it always has, and possibly only still gets traffic because there isn't really anywhere remotely comparable.
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ghelbig
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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2022 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TKSop wrote:
I think part of it is simply the way forums in general are going, and in some ways the way our societies are increasingly going...

I am agreeing with that. Instead of the smartest, or most skilled, attention is paid to the loudest.

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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2022 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It was mentioned above that this is indicative of changes in society. That's reflected by, “Everyone's entitled to their own opinion”. No, sorry, they're not. Some have real depth while others lack qualification. That phrase doess not imply a leveling out of authoritativeness in opinions.

To paraphrase an. “All opinions are created equal. Just some more equal than others”.

Like it or not, that's the way it is. I could n more tell a Maserati mechanic how to repair a car than he could tell me how to analyze a Webern work. Technically, I am entitled to give my opinion but that does not make it as informed as his.


But to be fair, sometimes it's hard o put opinions in perspective. It's situational. I'll speak authoritatively about something one day, naively about something the next. Unless someone has read all my posts, it may seem inconsistent.
In my case, I have been a full-time professional musician all my adult life. I played trumpet through secondary and university schools and in the military and pop bands. So, I know something about it. But then I turned to composition, then to conducting. When I returned to performing, it was as a woodwind player. It is only recently that I've returned to brass playing and a lot of water has passed under that bridge that I ned to catch up on. .

I've read a lot of old posts and have been surprised at the number of highly-qualified players who were once here. But from the points Brad makes, it's easy to see how they just threw their hands up. Sad, really.

(An aside. Brad, I always enjoy and get something out of your posts. While it may sometimes seem like ”'casting pearls among the swine” LOL., your post are meaningful and I'm sure it's not just me who are grateful.)
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2022 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
It was mentioned above that this is indicative of changes in society. That's reflected by, “Everyone's entitled to their own opinion”. No, sorry, they're not. Some have real depth while others lack qualification. That phrase doess not imply a leveling out of authoritativeness in opinions.

To paraphrase an. “All opinions are created equal. Just some more equal than others”.

Like it or not, that's the way it is. I could n more tell a Maserati mechanic how to repair a car than he could tell me how to analyze a Webern work. Technically, I am entitled to give my opinion but that does not make it as informed as his.


But to be fair, sometimes it's hard o put opinions in perspective. It's situational. I'll speak authoritatively about something one day, naively about something the next. Unless someone has read all my posts, it may seem inconsistent.
In my case, I have been a full-time professional musician all my adult life. I played trumpet through secondary and university schools and in the military and pop bands. So, I know something about it. But then I turned to composition, then to conducting. When I returned to performing, it was as a woodwind player. It is only recently that I've returned to brass playing and a lot of water has passed under that bridge that I ned to catch up on. .

I've read a lot of old posts and have been surprised at the number of highly-qualified players who were once here. But from the points Brad makes, it's easy to see how they just threw their hands up. Sad, really.

(An aside. Brad, I always enjoy and get something out of your posts. While it may sometimes seem like ”'casting pearls among the swine” LOL., your post are meaningful and I'm sure it's not just me who are grateful.)


Thank you sir, that’s very much appreciated, and I also appreciate your experienced thoughts and contributions here.

Brad
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2022 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would love to say that your decision means I will miss you more. But it wouldn’t be true.

After all your posts have been minimal for quite some time so going from few to none…

Seriously I have enjoyed reading your posts over the years. You will be missed.

Frankly I don’t think the forum has gone downhill much, if at all. Yeah, some respected contributors have moved on. Driven off? Maybe. Just got tired of the same old questions and discussions over and over? Just as likely.

I personally am glad TH has evolved over the years. I certainly got tired of all the threads discussing how to strip lacquer off a horn. Followed by questions about how to clean or keep hands from smelling after a playing sessions.

Nuff said
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Voltrane
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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2022 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kehaulani wrote
« It was mentioned above that this is indicative of changes in society. That's reflected by, “Everyone's entitled to their own opinion” »
Is not this what we call democratie?
Not so bad, it seems
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rothman
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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2022 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One possible idea, to lift the spirits of those that prefer to have more accomplished, 'expert' opinions, as separate from those beneath...which is perhaps a legitimate point. Why not have a category for 'Seasoned Pro' where others can read a short writeup of the playing background, plus also share - a few samples to give others some vague idea of their playing ? In other words, not a subset where anyone comes along to toss up an mp3, but serious players.

Obviously, you have neophyte, weekend warrior, pros, and retired pros. However, those who make the grade could be given a color code on their posts, to highlight that they are among a distinct group, and should be considered as such. This might help reduce whatever resentment, feeling of disillusion etc. over time.

OTOH, no one here is actually being forced to read this stuff, or interpret some point of view as sacrosanct over another. Opinions come all shapes and sizes. That said, it's a lot easier to respect a point if and when someone can partly substantiate it.
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stuartissimo
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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2022 4:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
It was mentioned above that this is indicative of changes in society. That's reflected by, “Everyone's entitled to their own opinion”. No, sorry, they're not. Some have real depth while others lack qualification. That phrase doess not imply a leveling out of authoritativeness in opinions.

For what it’s worth, I think society has changed a lot on that perspective too. People aren’t supposed to know things anymore (that’s what Google’s for), they’re supposed to solve problems. In the modern workplace, individual knowledge and experience has taken a back seat to agile development, responding to the problem in sight (often with no time for bigger context) and becoming an ‘good enough to converse at expert level’ quickly (the SCRUM project management method is literally based on the premise that anyone should be able to do everything). It’s hard to leave that way of thinking at the door when the work day is over, and I imagine it’s the same for a lot of younger people too.

When finding quick ‘good enough’ solutions and having discussions with everyone about everything is the biggest part of your day, it’s hard to adjust to the more old fashioned (though not neccesarily wrong) ‘teacher knows best’ way. Keep in mind that most folks do have good intentions, even if the way they go about it may not always be the most constructive.
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Seymor B Fudd
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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2022 8:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To me, posting and reading on forums such as the TH it´s all about [i]sharing[/i. Sharing experiences of life, playing in different settings, on different horns, discoveries of new horns, even mouthpieces.
As well as stories in which playing plays a role. Or even other stories that might be interesting to share. However mostly connected to playing.
All these discussions of how to use the tongue, airstreams, water hozes and what not also have gotten my attention - the mechanics of playing.

By finding the TH I also found a lot of "schools"; The BE turned out to become my salvation sort of and has kept me going in directions I thought was out of question at my age.

But sometimes there comes this post about a completely unknown, probably extremely rare mouthpiece: has anyone tried ...how does this compare to another equally weird piece"....Nope - but I don´´t have to read it.

I just love to read posts such as Tony Scodwells, and a lot of other experienced guys, yes you Keheulani and so many others. Experience talks!

I agree with your sentiments about self-acclaimed experts.In other fora I find tendencies such as those you describe - polarizing, black or white - not my cup of tea.

Some posts are "shareable" others not. I prefer the first ones.
Perhaps I should make it clear that I am not a)face booker)b)youtuber
c)in fact not on any platform at all. Twitter? Makes me burp.

Ps: by sharing I do not relate to the posting of "and now I will sit down enjoying my recent ice cream, I´m the guy at the front".

However: Things ain´t as bad as they used to be - they have gotten worse
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ECLtmpt2
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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2022 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seymor B Fudd wrote:
To me, posting and reading on forums such as the TH it´s all about [i]sharing[/i. Sharing experiences of life, playing in different settings, on different horns, discoveries of new horns, even mouthpieces.
As well as stories in which playing plays a role. Or even other stories that might be interesting to share. However mostly connected to playing.
All these discussions of how to use the tongue, airstreams, water hozes and what not also have gotten my attention - the mechanics of playing.

By finding the TH I also found a lot of "schools"; The BE turned out to become my salvation sort of and has kept me going in directions I thought was out of question at my age.

But sometimes there comes this post about a completely unknown, probably extremely rare mouthpiece: has anyone tried ...how does this compare to another equally weird piece"....Nope - but I don´´t have to read it.

I just love to read posts such as Tony Scodwells, and a lot of other experienced guys, yes you Keheulani and so many others. Experience talks!

I agree with your sentiments about self-acclaimed experts.In other fora I find tendencies such as those you describe - polarizing, black or white - not my cup of tea.

Some posts are "shareable" others not. I prefer the first ones.
Perhaps I should make it clear that I am not a)face booker)b)youtuber
c)in fact not on any platform at all. Twitter? Makes me burp.

Ps: by sharing I do not relate to the posting of "and now I will sit down enjoying my recent ice cream, I´m the guy at the front".

However: Things ain´t as bad as they used to be - they have gotten worse


Pretty close to my experience with TH. If it wasn't for TH I would have never found Jeff W. (BE) is close enough to me that I've taken lessons from him. It's quite a 'hike' and I've not been able to make the drive for a while but Jeff is a great teacher, human, & trumpet player. Went off topic...my comeback story has been related here, no need to repeat, but I'm always reading, reading, and reading. I don't post much because I feel I do not have the cred or experience to offer much more than basic info that has usually been stated already.

Brad, your posts, whether or not you know it-or care?, are always read by me. I'm sorry to hear you have had it with the anonymous 'shots and quips' that happen when there is a difference of opinions. Being from Houston perhaps you know of Sparky. I spent a year (2 semesters) at COM to study with him.

It is a shame that Trent was feed up with the bull and I think Jim Becker took some dings that were out of line, of course; this is my opinion.

My point is I'm basically a newbie here, but the positive trumpet info I have been able to get here is priceless and losing yet another great resource gives me pause. Perhaps these type forums are in their latter days but for me TH is still a tremendous wealth of good trumpet info. That is, if one can deal with getting through some of the BS.
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cbtj51
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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2022 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ECLtmpt2 wrote:

Brad, your posts, whether or not you know it-or care?, are always read by me. I'm sorry to hear you have had it with the anonymous 'shots and quips' that happen when there is a difference of opinions.

It is a shame that Trent was feed up with the bull and I think Jim Becker took some dings that were out of line...

... but the positive trumpet info I have been able to get here is priceless and losing yet another great resource gives me pause. Perhaps these type forums are in their latter days but for me TH is still a tremendous wealth of good trumpet info. That is, if one can deal with getting through some of the BS.


Many things changed or maybe a better choice of words would be evolved, during my 14 year sabbatical from mostly everything trumpet. Unfortunately, many other things did not follow suite.

I found TH shortly after starting up again, immediately gaining much useful info and enthusiasm for playing again. Many regular posters have influenced my decisions regarding playing again as well as instrument purchases, among them Brad361, LittleRusty, Shofarguy, Tony Scodwell, John Mohan, dstpt and, so many others.

Just as important though, was learning that TH is a buffet; everything is not going on my plate. Sometimes there is a bounty of great stuff, followed by a tedious weeding through to sort out the BS from the valuable while trying hard to keep my own posits from falling in the latter category. Hope to see you on TH going forward!

Holding out for the good stuff!

Mike
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