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New Shires 4f sticky 2nd valve



 
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kurth83
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Joined: 21 Oct 2021
Posts: 73

PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2022 9:07 pm    Post subject: New Shires 4f sticky 2nd valve Reply with quote

Is this normal?

In particular it frequently sticks when the 2nd valve is held down for a bit, and then released.

I am hoping it's just a break-in. I also figured it might be dirty, so I cleaned the horn real good, soap, water, valve caps (which were very dirty). Guessing 'new' means sat in a store as a demo model for a long time.

Inside, the valves themselves show some corrosion-like stains, but not on the second valve, more on the first, so if it isn't broken I won't worry about it.

I am used to Schilkes, clean them up (I've had some come with grease on the valves), and they are ready to go on day 1.

In the spirit of assuming it's a break-in period, I started doing Clark exercises on it every day, it seems to be helping, but after a week it still sticks a little. At least it got better.

The 1st and 3rd valve slides are also a bit tight, with the right grease they seem to be approaching decent, so I think I'm ok there.

On the plus side it plays really, really well.

Q: Will this horn ever be reliable enough to play out on it? Or should I ask Shires to fix it?

I use al cass fast valve oil if that means anything.
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2022 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sometimes the second valve casing becomes deformed if the second valve crook is hit. Perhaps laying it down too hard with the crook down. Or something similar. If that is the case though I would expect the valve to stick more regularly.

My personal issues with a sticking valve when held down longer, while notes vs sixteenths, have been due to worn or poorly fitted valves and a thicker oil helped.

Probably not the issue with your new horn, but buying and trying a thicker oil designed for vintage horns might be a cheap thing to try.
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Dayton
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Joined: 24 Mar 2013
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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2022 12:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suggest you contact Shires right away to make them aware of the issue. The valves on the Shires horns I've owned -- including a 4F, which is an awesome horn! -- have all performed flawlessly "out of the box."

Out of curiosity, have you tried switching the valve guide? Switch the 2nd and the 1st and see what happens.

Good luck!
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2022 3:48 am    Post subject: Re: New Shires 4f sticky 2nd valve Reply with quote

kurth83 wrote:
Is this normal?

No

kurth83 wrote:
In particular it frequently sticks when the 2nd valve is held down for a bit, and then released.

This can happen from two causes primarily: First, if you are not pressing straight down, or if the horn was initially broken-in by someone who did not and now you are, or secondly, and more commonly, by a gunk ridge, or wear ridge at the bottom of the stroke.

Check your hand position while playing, and after swabbing out the casing, run your finger around the inside surface to see if you can feel any sort of ridge from where the bottom edge of the piston stops.

kurth83 wrote:
I am hoping it's just a break-in. I also figured it might be dirty, so I cleaned the horn real good, soap, water, valve caps (which were very dirty). Guessing 'new' means sat in a store as a demo model for a long time.

On a new horn you should be wiping down and re-oiling the valves daily - including swabbing the casings. As long as you find a sign of black residue from brass being abraded (or maybe just a grey tint on a white rag), the valves are still seating. That residue very quickly accentuates the already higher friction of the immature fit.

kurth83 wrote:
Inside, the valves themselves show some corrosion-like stains, but not on the second valve, more on the first, so if it isn't broken I won't worry about it.

Please provide more detail. If these are dark blotches on the sides of the pistons, you may have a monel porosity problem with these valves. When this happens, the tiny pockets in the surface scrape brass off the casing wall and fill in (creating the stain), which then provides oxidized brass to oxidized brass occlusion - making the valves sticky (and potentially seizing if left too long)

kurth83 wrote:
The 1st and 3rd valve slides are also a bit tight, with the right grease they seem to be approaching decent, so I think I'm ok there.
The "bent parts" for Shires are made by Eastman's Chinese supply chain, which includes suppliers who do not demonstrate the best in Asian workmanship. This can make the alignment more challenging for the assemblers in the US. You may need to have a skilled tech see if they can improve the fit.

kurth83 wrote:
Q: Will this horn ever be reliable enough to play out on it? Or should I ask Shires to fix it?
I would hope so. That is not a cheap horn, and to accept anything less makes no sense.

kurth83 wrote:
I use al cass fast valve oil if that means anything.
Everyone has their favorites - and mistake stories. I have used Al Cass oil for over 50 years now on tight/newer valves, and used a heavier oil for my more worn vintage horns. You don't want to make the mistake of putting a heavy oil on tight valves, that will bind in itself.
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tyler.slamkowski
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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2022 5:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I love my Shires, but I have to say the valves are the weakest aspect of my personal instruments, used or new.
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Notlem
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Joined: 20 Nov 2021
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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2022 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My bach valves stuck really bad for the first couple of weeks. All of them!
I lasted only about 10 minutes max at some point with fresh valve oil before I got frustrated...

what I was doing was wiping the valves off with a super soft microfiber, then oiling the valves before each use.

What I learned.... Read the manual...

1.apparently the Bach had a card in the case that said the horn came lubed with synthetic valve oil and that if mixed with non synthetic that the vales would stick.

2. Instructions also said to clean the vales and casing daily. yes that means to use dawn or Ajax dish soap on them to get all the crud off.

3. Oil the valves daily before every use.

my mistakes... all of them... how I fixed it quick... followed the directions...

1. cleaned the valves and casings with dawn or Ajax (dish soap) daily
2. put in fresh valve oil before every use

After a week, my vales are crazy fast and smooth.

At least try it once before you run back to the store, it takes very little time.

-marc


Last edited by Notlem on Thu May 26, 2022 8:40 pm; edited 1 time in total
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kurth83
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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2022 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Notlem wrote:

...
1. cleaned the valves and casings with Ajaxdaily


I thought Ajax was like comet, a highly abrasive compound. I guess that's one way of achieving super fast break-in. Not sure I want to try it.
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2022 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only Ajax I've used is a mildly abrasive powder. I've never heard mention of using any powdered cleaner on a horn. While I doubt it would hurt anything while cleaning, I would never want to risk leaving some in the cylinder. I'd stick with most any dishwashing liquid.
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Notlem
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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2022 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kurth83 wrote:
Notlem wrote:

...
1. cleaned the valves and casings with Ajaxdaily


I thought Ajax was like comet, a highly abrasive compound. I guess that's one way of achieving super fast break-in. Not sure I want to try it.


What? It’s dish soap… the dawn for me was always super thick… the Ajax is a little more watered down to me and required less rinse out.

I blame Dave if you think it’s a poor choice: https://youtu.be/_oG-e9nh31w

There was definitely some lapping compound that took a few washings to fully get out.

-marc
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Notlem
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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2022 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Holy cow I just found that powered stuff on a web search that your talking about… never even knew it existed! Yeah, would never use that product, but th dish soap is good!

I learn something new everyday, but I still have not learned anything that could save thousands of lives like curing cancer!
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cheiden
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Joined: 28 Sep 2004
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Location: Orange County, CA

PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2022 8:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Notlem wrote:
Holy cow I just found that powered stuff on a web search that your talking about… never even knew it existed! Yeah, would never use that product, but th dish soap is good!

I learn something new everyday, but I still have not learned anything that could save thousands of lives like curing cancer!

It never occurred to me that Ajax made a liquid. Good to know.
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"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart
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