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Ab Trumpet - does one exist?



 
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Ghostly Bugler
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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2022 2:48 am    Post subject: Ab Trumpet - does one exist? Reply with quote

Has anybody ever made an Ab Trumpet?

I can see how a C Trumpet helps Bb players read concert parts.
But what about poor converted string players like me?
I'm a after a trumpet that will do the reverse transposition for me and allow me to read Bb parts as if they are 'concert'.

It was never a problem on a bugle - only the 6 notes to learn

Or.....am I just being lazy? (Time is not on my side here!)
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Brassnose
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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2022 4:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sort of:

https://www.ebay.de/itm/234561428307?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=707-127634-2357-0&ssspo=dCq_yGIfQwC&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=rngyjXXXQdG&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

https://www.ebay-kleinanzeigen.de/s-anzeige/as-trompete-fuer-posaunenchoerler-die-im-verein-spielen-moechten/2080871886-74-9188?utm_source=copyToPasteboard&utm_campaign=socialbuttons&utm_medium=social&utm_content=app_ios
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Ghostly Bugler
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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2022 10:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Brassnose"]Sort of:

Thanks
Wow -
You'd need long arms for that second one!
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2022 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You just need to learn Bb or C. The standard literature is Bb/C centric. That's where the tessituras lie.

I've learned -not just fun, but at a professional level- instruments in C, Bb, Eb and F. You just do it. No shortcuts. With the right attitude, it can be fun.
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Ghostly Bugler
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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2022 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
You just need to learn Bb or C. The standard literature is Bb/C centric. That's where the tessituras lie.

I've learned -not just fun, but at a professional level- instruments in C, Bb, Eb and F. You just do it. No shortcuts. With the right attitude, it can be fun.



You're right (of course) - I was looking for a shortcut. I can read music as fast as I can read English. If I move to Germany, there are some pretty bizarre solutions but it looks as if I'm doomed to re-learning all that fingering that I taught myself .....in concert.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2022 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What does this man?
" . . If I move to Germany, there are some pretty bizarre solutions . "
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2022 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
You just need to learn Bb or C. The standard literature is Bb/C centric. That's where the tessituras lie.

I've learned -not just fun, but at a professional level- instruments in C, Bb, Eb and F. You just do it. No shortcuts. With the right attitude, it can be fun.


For a professional player, this is absolutely correct.

For a recreational player however, I have to disagree. I have considered having an Ab set of slides made for one of my horns for years, because being almost exclusively a church player, everything I do is in C, and with bass clef being what I came up on, Bb is actually the hardest of everything I might transpose from (tenor next, then F, then Alto, then Eb - most of those are pretty easy, Bb tends to lead to oopses for me just because I read so much C).

For a recreational player, there is nothing wrong with turning to equipment if the time and dedication required to do "the right thing" will eclipse what is warranted and lead to simply missing out.

So it depends entirely on the goal. Maybe I missed it, but does the OP indicate?
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Ghostly Bugler
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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2022 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
What does this man?
" . . If I move to Germany, there are some pretty bizarre solutions . "



Check the Ebay links Brassnose has posted above, for horns on sale in Germany. I'd love to hear what you make of them.
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Ghostly Bugler
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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2022 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="OldSchoolEuph"]
kehaulani wrote:


For a recreational player, there is nothing wrong with turning to equipment if the time and dedication required to do "the right thing" will eclipse what is warranted and lead to simply missing out.

So it depends entirely on the goal. Maybe I missed it, but does the OP indicate?


You've nailed it. I've learned Violin since the age of 4. Bugle in a band from age 13. (so got to grips with the rudiments of Brass) loads of orchestral string playing - fancied some brass. Trombone the obvious one. Written in concert - harmonics = strings. Slide position = fingering. Easy decision.

Then I discovered big band.

Played in many ensembles - was given a trumpet. Improvising not a problem - taught myself to play (in concert). Playing improves -start getting the odd request to 'sit in'. Parts dished out.... PANIC .
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Tom LeCompte
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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2022 2:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Ab Trumpet - does one exist? Reply with quote

Ghostly Bugler wrote:
Has anybody ever made an Ab Trumpet?


Surely someone did so somewhere.

Around 1980 I saw a B natural trumpet at the Schilke factory. Not much of a leap from B natural to Ab.
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RETrumpet
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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2022 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My Conn 22b has a quick change rotor to A and also a stop rod assembly to pull the slide to A. The rod is intended for use with a different tuning slide (without the valve) but it is possible to use them in conjunction to put the horn in Ab.

The only real issue is that the third slide does not have a way to keep it extended to the key of Ab. Even if you just hold it out, you run out of room to adjust the low C#...
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JeffM729
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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2022 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you really have your heart set on an Ab trumpet, the easiest solution would be to cut a G 3 valve soprano down a bit to Ab.
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Brassnose
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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2022 11:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, here is what I think about the two instruments I posted the links. It looks like these are Bb horns that were redone by someone who knows brass instruments (I suspect I know who made them and that would be a trained brass person, but as I am not sure, I won’t post the name). I do have to say that the construction is rather awkward and if I had done it I’d probably have added a loop or two to keep the overall construction shorter. Puje in Ab, so to say

The intention of these instruments, as stated in the ad, is to give C-trained people the possibility to play in a brass band, big band, oompah band (in those, even the tenor horns and baritones read Bb treble clef), or the like while using the fingerings they are used to playing in C.

As I wrote in a few threads before, we have a lot (!), mostly older, people that were trained in trombone choirs (i.e. church brass bands) that exclusively read and play in C. As such, if these folks want to play in a Bb orchestra, they’ll need an Ab trumpet or they need to learn to transpose down one step. I never tried that because I come from the other side (need to practice playing concert pitch), so I can’t say how hard this is.
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gus
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PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2022 4:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Ab in the link was made, as Brassote said for people in German posaunenchors. In late 19 century they startee to play church hymns
Directly for hymn books. Later they expanded their literature but keeping
The piano like reading.

Some decent players wanted to read bb trumpet parts may like to use
This

I began in ine of those Later i studied formally. The bug advantage
Is.that i do not transpose in c.
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SterlingBell
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PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2022 5:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I talked to Armando Ghittala after one of his recitals. He played the Tomasi on a Db trumpet. Yamaha made it for him. He said it made the fingerings easier for that solo!
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Irving
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PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2022 6:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ghitalla was a student of Vacchiano, and Vacchiano would use any trumpet in any key to get the job done. All trumpets in all keys will have an advantage at some point. I have used a Db trumpet as well. But as far as the Ab trumpet goes, it might sound like a good idea, but I would say that the OP should bite the bullet and learn how to transpose. For these reasons:

The Ab trumpets that are available are probably not very good so if he is playing with other trumpet players, intonation and timbre will always be an issue. They might also give him a hard time since it will be difficult to play with him. If the level is low and nobody tries to tune, then OK. In that case, I would suggest having spacers made for his Bb. Spacers for the valve slides and two extensions for the tuning crook. That will probably be just as good as any Ab trumpet that he might find. Another possible solution if he has a Bach trumpet. They make Bb slides to put a C trumpet into Bb. He can used those slides to put a Bb trumpet into Ab. Maybe not the greatest solution but worth a try if he knows somebody that has the slides and a Bach Bb trumpet.

Nix the above solution. I just tried putting the Bb conversion slide for C trumpet into my Bach Bb. It is too long, and the bell gets in the way. So it won't fit in. An extension would need to be made for the mouthpiece receiver,as well as pulling out the main tuning crook.

Actually I remember that Vacchiano had his students get a G extension for their Bach Bb in order to work on low notes. This was made by getting two 3rd valve slides, and putting them into each other. Then you would put this into the lower tuning crook receiver, and then put the tuning crook into the extension. This technique would work for Ab, but the amount of tubing of the extension would have to be shortened.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2022 7:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ghostly Bugler wrote:
Then I discovered big band.

If you want to play in big band, you need a Bb. And not only any old Bb but one that blends.
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Halflip
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PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2022 7:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here you go:


Link


It should be a fairly simple exercise to add a valve block . . .
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Ghostly Bugler
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PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2022 8:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Halflip wrote:
Here you go:

It should be a fairly simple exercise to add a valve block . . .


Thanks a bunch !!! So no short cuts then.
Thanks to everybody who has contributed.
Especially those who mistakenly credited me with more ability and connections than I actually have.

I suspect that a course of lessons from a teacher who only 'speaks Bb' will be a good accelerator.

Cheers Everybody.
David B
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