• FAQ  • Search  • Memberlist  • Usergroups   • Register   • Profile  • Log in to check your private messages  • Log in 

Bach core


Goto page Previous  1, 2
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Horns
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Steve A
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 26 May 2006
Posts: 1799
Location: Toronto, Canada

PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2022 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shofarguy wrote:

I have preferences, like you do. I have thoughts and observations, like you do. Mine are different than yours, I guess. I like to selectively pick and choose anecdotes from the same two or three biased people on every subject who know better than I have shared with me over the years, and completely ignore everything to the contrary, despite its overwhelming abundance. They expand my knowledge base. I include them so that the members of this forum can grow in their knowledge, as well.

It's part of my personal makeup to resist "the crowd" thinking by repeating promotional talking points from other manufacturers. I like to "fly solo" ...with the other soloists.


There - I fixed it for you.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Subtropical and Subpar
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 22 May 2020
Posts: 615
Location: Here and there

PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2022 8:57 am    Post subject: Re: Bach Reply with quote

Bethmike wrote:
AL wrote
Quote:
I know of some things coming down the pipe at Bach


Funny wording!

I have been told my tone on my 180S37 with a Melk MTV525 leadpipe is very nice. And I am just a pretty good hobbyist.

I like my Bach. And my Kanstul, and my Olds............


I also like my Bach, Kanstul, and Olds!
_________________
1936 King Liberty No. 2
1958 Reynolds Contempora 44-M "Renascence" C
1958 Olds Ambassador
1962 Reynolds Argenta LB
1965 Conn Connstellation 38A cornet
1995 Bach LR18072
2003 Kanstul 991
2011 Schilke P5-4 B/G
2021 Manchester Brass flugel
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
OldSchoolEuph
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 07 Apr 2012
Posts: 2426

PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2022 9:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shofarguy wrote:
I don't jump to conclusions about anything. I gather input from as many sources as possible and build a perspective based around what I have learned. I don't "come to the conclusion," I consider the aspect.

I have preferences, like you do. I have thoughts and observations, like you do. Mine are different than yours, I guess. I like to include anecdotes that people who know better than I have shared with me over the years. They expand my knowledge base. I include them so that the members of this forum can grow in their knowledge, as well.


With regard to the prior post misquoting the above, I have argued with Brian more than once (we all have opinions after all), yet I have never known him to do other than what he stated there.
_________________
Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com

2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
TrptSTP
Veteran Member


Joined: 25 Apr 2008
Posts: 378
Location: Toledo, OH

PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2022 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shofarguy wrote:
Do you want to stir things up? Do what I've done and go to hear the average community ensemble player who plays a Bach 37. My experience is that the sound from that horn won't reach the back of a fair sized auditorium. Maybe not even the "footlights" as Byron Autrey once exclaimed. Are there players who can project with that horn? Of course, but they have to work much harder to accomplish it than I ever did on my Benge or WT. My experience is that many trumpets produce a more effective sound than a Bach 37. Maybe that's a bonus in certain instances. Orchestras don't need much trumpet usually, for one.


Just say that you're an amateur judging other amateur players. That's fine. But the Bach 37 is something of a commonality or "home base" for a great many orchestral/classical players. If you don't think that a 37 bell Bach can project, you haven't been around, listened to, or studied with many (any) quality classically trained musicians.

And as others have said, Orchestras definitely need that "much" trumpet. This speaks to a lack of understanding in what the orchestral literature demands. If you would like a list of orchestral works that refute your point, I certainly could list some.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
dstpt
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 14 Dec 2005
Posts: 1272

PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2022 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:
(1)Yes, (2)Yes, (3)N/A, (4&5) Don't overthink. Copying is easier than that. The 37/43/72/etc. bell taper is not patent protected. Finding the right material/weight/annealing to truly duplicate or to be a variation on is then a matter of trial & error.

The only person who ever really worked at engineering that geometry into the overall unique geometry of a mandrel was Vincent Bach. Anyone else can simply copy not just that, but the other aspects of popular Bach tapers, and then tweak all of the other factors to suit their application. Some are very close (Yamaha 8335 for instance), some are very different (B&S Heritage claims a 43 bell but is quite unique - but faintly familiar...)
Sorry I haven't address this, yet, Ron. Okay, so I understand you to say that yes, the Yamaha 8335, for one, has actually "captured" the "Bach core." Do you know of any YouTube recordings that could clearly illustrate this? Not meaning to challenge, just trying to learn. I, personally, have not heard the "Bach core" in other brands, and I've played quite a few brands, but maybe we are all hearing different aspects of the tonal profile of horns that seem to duplicate or are close to it when we discuss things like this. I'll do some YT searching on my own and report back if I discover any. In case someone is just jumping into this discussion, I've already raised the question as to how much of the "Bach core" would be heard by the average audience member as well as other reasons it may or may not be important to us as trumpet players.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
OldSchoolEuph
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 07 Apr 2012
Posts: 2426

PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2022 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dstpt wrote:
OldSchoolEuph wrote:
(1)Yes, (2)Yes, (3)N/A, (4&5) Don't overthink. Copying is easier than that. The 37/43/72/etc. bell taper is not patent protected. Finding the right material/weight/annealing to truly duplicate or to be a variation on is then a matter of trial & error.

The only person who ever really worked at engineering that geometry into the overall unique geometry of a mandrel was Vincent Bach. Anyone else can simply copy not just that, but the other aspects of popular Bach tapers, and then tweak all of the other factors to suit their application. Some are very close (Yamaha 8335 for instance), some are very different (B&S Heritage claims a 43 bell but is quite unique - but faintly familiar...)
Sorry I haven't address this, yet, Ron. Okay, so I understand you to say that yes, the Yamaha 8335, for one, has actually "captured" the "Bach core." Do you know of any YouTube recordings that could clearly illustrate this? Not meaning to challenge, just trying to learn. I, personally, have not heard the "Bach core" in other brands, and I've played quite a few brands, but maybe we are all hearing different aspects of the tonal profile of horns that seem to duplicate or are close to it when we discuss things like this. I'll do some YT searching on my own and report back if I discover any. In case someone is just jumping into this discussion, I've already raised the question as to how much of the "Bach core" would be heard by the average audience member as well as other reasons it may or may not be important to us as trumpet players.


I recommend playing many horns yourself - better yet, blindly listening (which removes an preconceptions that may color perception). I know, not easy to do these days. However, YouTube and many other recorded options are just too vulnerable to the characteristics of the recording equipment - especially the tiny (and tinny) condenser mics in phones and digital recorders.
_________________
Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com

2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Jon Arnold
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 07 Jan 2002
Posts: 2024

PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2022 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I will say this. All Bach 37's are not created equal. I just got back my 1947 37 bell from Charlie Melk today and it is truly an amazing horn. I have owned 37's from several periods and they all varied in terms of sound and playability. I started on a late 80's 37 in high school and it was not such a good player. I know this by trying other people's 37's.

If you want to go with a new Bach, the 190-37 is a great all horn that will serve most playing purposes. It is manufactured like they did in the early Elkhart period.

My 47 is a tighter wrap. Lighter gauge metal and responds so much faster. The wrap effects the agility and slotting. I love this horn and is my favorite 37 hands down.

I have owned several 37's from the Mt. Vernon era, early Elkhart, 80s. They were all unique in their own way.

The Mt. Vernon was the darkest sounding horn for sure. If I played only classical, that would be a good choice.

I have found through trial and error I love the response of lighter horns. The NY Bach is the best of both worlds for me of great sound and fast response.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
OldSchoolEuph
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 07 Apr 2012
Posts: 2426

PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2022 11:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jon Arnold wrote:
I will say this. All Bach 37's are not created equal.
...
I have owned several 37's from the Mt. Vernon era, early Elkhart, 80s. They were all unique in their own way.

Your initial statement makes it sound like you are saying that theoretically identical Bach's will be very different (and Bach intended some variation to give individual players better access to a more perfect fit), but then the later part points out that you are talking about completely different designs. The bell taper might be the same, and probably the valve porting, but other than that, wrap, mass, mass placement, even leadpipe taper, are all from different design concepts.

Jon Arnold wrote:
If you want to go with a new Bach, the 190-37 is a great all horn that will serve most playing purposes. It is manufactured like they did in the early Elkhart period.

My 47 is a tighter wrap. Lighter gauge metal and responds so much faster. The wrap effects the agility and slotting. I love this horn and is my favorite 37 hands down.
...
The NY Bach is the best of both worlds for me of great sound and fast response.

This is fascinating in that you speak very favorably of what is about as heavy and tight-slotting a horn as Bach has made (the real Early Elkharts being the heaviest of all by a very slight margin), and then go on to say how much you prefer the polar opposite. Are you saying Bach design is at its best in your opinion when pushed to the more extreme ends of its ranges?

Is your 1947 37 an M bore, or ML? In either case, the bell will range from a modern lightweight to lighter still, with obvious impact on response. If, as almost all do, it also has a French bead, that will significantly increase the leak-back to the player's ears, which makes the horn, which is already a more efficient and thus "more open" blow, seem all the more free blowing, as the sound pressure at your ears will be greater than when putting the same energy into most any other horn with a standard bead bell. - Of course, for the listener, these horns are said to "not project" (because the player tends to put less energy in due to their side of the bell sounding louder.

I too like the Bach horns of this period, and it is the only deign that I actually like a 37 bell on (putting me in the minority, I know). Something about the 37 tonal profile just shapes and resonates better (for me) with the lighter horn and it's wrap - or maybe I'm letting the bead color my perception... Either way, fun horn to play.
_________________
Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com

2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Tpt_Guy
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 16 Jul 2004
Posts: 1101
Location: Sacramento, Ca

PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2022 7:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:

...the real Early Elkharts being the heaviest of all by a very slight margin...


I'm not sure I believe this, since my Early Elkhart Bach C (S/N 38,XXX) is the lightest Bach C I've ever put my hands on.
_________________
-Tom Hall-

"A good teacher protects his pupils from his own influence."
-Bruce Lee
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
cbtj51
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 24 Nov 2015
Posts: 722
Location: SE US

PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2022 8:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shofarguy wrote:
This is such a complex subject...

hints... Zig Kanstul gave a couple of them.
"I could make a trumpet sound like a Bach, but then it would have the intonation of a Bach. Why would anyone buy my horn, then? They would just buy a Bach." ...idea that faults give an instrument its character, which is part of its overall sound.

Belief. I believe in my Wild Thing instruments. Bach players believe in their Strads. Heck, when I read what some people posted about their Martin Committees, I thought I'd stumbled into a religious cult!
...Religious people are not very open to alternative perspectives. I should know.

It was tough for me to accept ... It was tough for me to concede... . It was hard, because belief is a powerful thing and hard to change.


Refreshing considerations in the fog!

Mike
_________________
'71 LA Benge 5X Bb
'72 LA Benge D/Eb
'76 Bach CL 229/25A C
‘92 Bach 37 Bb
'98 Getzen 895S Flugelhorn
'00 Bach 184 Cornet
'02 Yamaha 8335RGS
'16 Bach NY 7
'16 XO 1700RS Piccolo
Reeves 41 Rimmed Mouthpieces
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
OldSchoolEuph
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 07 Apr 2012
Posts: 2426

PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2022 8:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tpt_Guy wrote:
OldSchoolEuph wrote:

...the real Early Elkharts being the heaviest of all by a very slight margin...


I'm not sure I believe this, since my Early Elkhart Bach C (S/N 38,XXX) is the lightest Bach C I've ever put my hands on.


The conversation was regarding ML bore Bb trumpets.
_________________
Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com

2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
cbtj51
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 24 Nov 2015
Posts: 722
Location: SE US

PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2022 8:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TrptSTP wrote:

...amateur judging other amateur players. That's fine.


From an enthusiastic amateur's point of view; I would venture that many individuals in the TH populace, self included, are as described (Caveat: replace "judging" with "considering")! I continue to return to TH regularly because of such, as well as the opinions, thoughts and musings of seasoned professionals and neophytes!

Judge not...

Mike
_________________
'71 LA Benge 5X Bb
'72 LA Benge D/Eb
'76 Bach CL 229/25A C
‘92 Bach 37 Bb
'98 Getzen 895S Flugelhorn
'00 Bach 184 Cornet
'02 Yamaha 8335RGS
'16 Bach NY 7
'16 XO 1700RS Piccolo
Reeves 41 Rimmed Mouthpieces
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Horns All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2
Page 2 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group