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towawayzone
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Joined: 14 May 2022
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2022 2:10 pm    Post subject: Im so tired Reply with quote

As a freshman in high school all I wanted was a high D. But I just couldn't get it. Six years later my range has not gotten any better despite daily practice and trying so many methods you wouldn't believe. Ive had lessons with some of the best teachers including Greg Spence, Bobby Shew, and Jim Manley, in addition to regular lessons with local professionals. If I completely dedicate myself to playing high notes, they become a little easier. When I take a light day, or forget about building range for a day, my high C all but disappears for weeks. When I do manage to eek out a high D, it lasts for 2 days, then it'll be gone for a month. Yes, all my practice has made me better, and yes, range is not everything, but it sucks barely being able to play a high C after so many years of effort. I just want to be able to play music and not have to woe about high notes.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2022 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do you feel that you've actually learned things about the 'skill' and 'technique' for high notes? Are there specific things that those teachers suggested that you have included in your playing? Are there things that they suggested that you never quite 'got'?

Did you make any changes in the way you 'set' or 'adjust' your lips, and embouchure that helped your playing higher?

Were you ever in the trap of 'more rim pressure and tight stretched lips' - have you gotten away from that?

My guess is that there are some skill and technique things that could help you, but you haven't been able to latch onto them yet.

If you describe your playing style in detail, people here will give you lots of ideas -- some might work!
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Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
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towawayzone
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2022 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JayKosta wrote:
Do you feel that you've actually learned things about the 'skill' and 'technique' for high notes? Are there specific things that those teachers suggested that you have included in your playing? Are there things that they suggested that you never quite 'got'?

Did you make any changes in the way you 'set' or 'adjust' your lips, and embouchure that helped your playing higher?

Were you ever in the trap of 'more rim pressure and tight stretched lips' - have you gotten away from that?

My guess is that there are some skill and technique things that could help you, but you haven't been able to latch onto them yet.

If you describe your playing style in detail, people here will give you lots of ideas -- some might work!


Well, I've learned you need to figure out 'where' the note is, and you need the coordination and strength/support to hit it.

Every time a teacher suggests something I 'live by' their suggestion for a few months to try it out.

I always think I understand what teachers tell me, but you could argue I never 'got' what any teacher said about high notes, because none of it has really worked for me. Right now am working on the advice of Jim Manley, and am trying to 'get' what he means by making every note feel like low C, using very little air, etc.

I haven't fooled around with my embouchure in a long time.

I don't think I use more rim pressure or have more stretched lips than the next guy, but sometimes I notice my lips are stretched when I'm having a bad range day.

Not sure exactly what you mean by my playing style.
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Don Herman rev2
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2022 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds like you need a consistent program and teacher to drive it. Jim is a great guy and certainly knows his stuff, but a single lesson is not likely enough to fully grasp his approach.

If you are on your own, I'd suggest picking a plan and sticking with it for a year or so. Jeff Smiley's Balanced Embouchure is a good one in my mind (and experience) for a self-guided approach, but many others work as well for many folk.
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Jaw04
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2022 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are you performing? What are your musical goals?
You mentioned you just want to be able to play music and not have to worry about high notes, but in my career that has not happened. We always are concerned with range, truthfully, whether we top out at C or G or double C... if you are feeling fatigued and have a demanding section of music coming up, it's going to be a stressor. That's just being honest from my perspective as someone who was never a natural high note player but worked at it.
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Shaft
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2022 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

“Use only the air that is needed” - Jim Manley
He clarified that for me when I said “as little as possible.”
It may seem like a play on words but there is a difference.


Re: low C

Lots of us players have a tendency to start doing things as we ascend.
Ie. Compress lips or tighten this or push there etc.
Mentioning Low C is to encourage us to try and approach each note
as we go up without doing anything unnecessary to get a pitch out.


The goals of efficiency are lifelong. He works and worked on this a ton.
(Doc Severinson is said to have been intense when it came to practice)
Some exercises show noticeable change weeks or months later.


EFFICIENCY - think of this in all that you do. Rereading your initial post
I would just say this. Are you able to play in tune? Play soft? Resonate?
Do you resonate soft? Does the articulation speak crisply and respond
instantly? Clarity? All of this goes back to efficiency. Some things YOU
may actually need to assess as you are playing. Minute changes etc.

I would focus less on high notes and more on things related to efficiency
because it will lead you to where you want to be with range as a result.

Keep at it! You’re doing the right thing trying to learn and seek advice.
Enjoy the journey!


Last edited by Shaft on Mon Jun 27, 2022 2:47 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Brassnose
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2022 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

With high D you mean D above high C (i.e. high concert C), right? It took me around 30 years to consistently play in that range (including a 12 year hiatus) and a complete reset of my embouchure and breathing. I know this sounds long (there are other boundary conditions involved in my case) but progress on the trumpet is (unfortunately) not linear but highly discontinuous.

One important thing that made me realize I was not playing with my optimal setting was a discussion with my current teacher about stance and mouthpiece positioning: when he looked at the way I am standing while playing he immediately corrected my stance. Legs less far apart, relax in the knees, stand straight, move your hips forward to allow for a more open airflow, … easy to identify, hard to be consistent while playing but has an immediate effect on your breathing once you got it.

The other thing was mouthpiece and horn position. Coming from a big band and commercial background I was used to holding the trumpet up high and to have significant pressure on the top lip. Also, more lower lip than top lip was in the mouthpiece.

A repositioning to allow more top lip in the mp along with me now holding the trumpet much lower (less Maynard, more Nakariakov, as far as the bell direction goes) to free up the top lip to vibrate and - boom - I gained about a third or fourth in range. I can now comfortably play up to high G if warmed up properly but typically I need high C, sometimes D or E (but that is rare for me).

Finally it took me a long time to realize that for high notes I need less air than for low notes. Sounds trivial, again hard to implement if you spent the first 20 years of playing on high power high notes. Doing much better now in combination with the other factors described above.
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abontrumpet
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2022 2:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Welcome to the trumpet. You can try and do everything right and not make progress.

I always like to come back to axioms, our bare minimum ingredients. Let's assume there is not a serious limiting factor to your physiology and ask "what are the ingredients needed for sound?"
1. Air needs to be able to flow
2. Sound is vibration
2a. The lips are the vibrating medium
2b. The lips must be free to vibrate
2c. The lips must be free to vibrate and in the right shape to do so at the desired pitch.
3. Nothing can get in the way of all that.

When you really think about it, it has powerful implications. No matter what anybody says on here, these are truths. Without hearing you play, everybody is just throwing spaghetti at the wall.

My spaghetti: if something you have disappears for weeks, then you do not play in a way that is repeatable and consistent. Another way to put it is: you are not 100% convinced on the way you want to play the trumpet. If we think of what I'm talking about as "approach" or "form" it'd be like saying you swing differently or shoot the ball differently everyday. You need to work on "this is how 'I' want to play" and do that everyday. It might take some time to recalibrate but ultimately consistency in approach will give you consistency in your playing. Feel free to DM me with any questions.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2022 4:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

towawayzone wrote:

Well, I've learned you need to figure out 'where' the note is, and you need the coordination and strength/support to hit it.
...
Right now am working on the advice of Jim Manley, and am trying to 'get' what he means by making every note feel like low C, using very little air, etc. ...

--------------------------------
I think that 'finding where the note is' is the basic need, and the skill is to consistently establish that positioning.

Perhaps (?) what Manley means is to avoid thinking that some notes are 'difficult' - just learn the 'where' for all the notes and practice enough to have the ability to play them just like all the others.

It might be that you have a too literal understanding of what various teachers (or other 'sources of information') are saying. My view is that just about all good players use similar 'BASIC technique' - but there are many personal differences in how they go about describing and 'activating' the technique.

When you read / hear / see what someone is doing, it's most important to understand what 'basics' are being done, and to then understand the details of the actions that are used to achieve those basics - for that particular player.

My views about basics are here -
http://users.hancock.net/jkosta/Embouchure_Basic_Concepts.htm
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Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
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Vin DiBona
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2022 6:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You must be desperate to seek answers here if lessons with those top teachers/players didn't work.
Anyway, were those in person or skype lesson?
Did you bounce from one to the other?
What equipment are you using?? A bif, deep mouthpiece?
Did Bobby Shew teach you the wedge breath?

The only advice I can give you is to try Roger Ingram for skype lessons.
I play on a weekly basis with him and he is not only a great player, he understands how to play in the upper register and should help you.

R. Tomasek
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gwood66
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2022 8:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JayKosta wrote:
Perhaps (?) what Manley means is to avoid thinking that some notes are 'difficult' - just learn the 'where' for all the notes and practice enough to have the ability to play them just like all the others.


Jay, I would be cautious about trying to interpret what Jim meant unless you have taken a lesson from him. Read the post by Shaft to understand what Jim was getting at. That is exactly what I understood from my lesson with him.

@ towawayzone. Like Shaft posted, look to gain efficiency in the normal playing register. It will unlock the path to improving your upper register.

Vin DiBona gave some good advice as well. Roger may be the one who ties it altogether for you.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2022 9:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

gwood66 wrote:

Jay, I would be cautious about trying to interpret what Jim meant unless you have taken a lesson from him. Read the post by Shaft to understand what Jim was getting at. That is exactly what I understood from my lesson with him. ...

------------------------------------------
I understand and agree with you. I'm not able understand much from Shaft's post about Manley's ideas and how he taught or described them. If you or Shaft can provide more info, I would appreciate it.

The main reason I even mentioned Manley's is that in the OP's post
( https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1657912#1657912 ), the OP seems to have 2 conflicting ideas - figure out the 'where' for each note, and have every note feel like low C.
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Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
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Shaft
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2022 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You’re fine. I asked him one time if there’s much difference between low C and C above the staff and he said no there’s not much difference at all.

Last edited by Shaft on Mon Jun 27, 2022 2:48 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Destructo
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2022 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jim's approach is all about doing as little as you can with the most output.

One thing that I think is worth mentioning here is that if you're trying to play using Jim's approach on a big mouthpiece, it's not going to look the same. You will need more air, you will need more tension etc.
Conversely, if you play the way Jim suggest you can sound like you're playing a 1C when you're actually playing a 10.5C or smaller. You might even sound better. Yeah, it'll feel weird at first, but your face will work it out. I switched from a Bach 3c-ish piece to a Warburton 8MC after a lesson with Jim (not on his advice). While playing the way Jim showed me, I started to notice just how hard I was working, how much I was having to adjust between registers etc. So I stuck a Warburton 8MC in because it was the only thing smaller than a Bach 5 that I owned. And it felt a lot easier and using Jim's approach sounded better than the 3C after a few days to adjust to the new diameter.
I'm playing a Lotus 7L now, but that's only because they don't make a smaller diameter.
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mafields627
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2022 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really think there are some people that are not physiologically suited to play in the upper register. It's my personal opinion that having large flat teeth hinders the upper register. I'm a product of the braces generation and my upper register didn't really solidify until I discovered Balanced Embouchure. I'll never be mistaken for a pro lead player, but I'm solid enough to handle what comes my way in community musical theater pits and community band.

Louis Dowsdeswell has some interesting thoughts in this interview: https://youtu.be/JScX1ZOZQE8

I also recommend checking out the Balanced Embouchure method. It's not silver bullet and it's not a gimmick -- it simply frees the lips to do what they need to do naturally (roll in as you ascend, roll out as you descend).
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Destructo
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2022 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mafields627 wrote:
I really think there are some people that are not physiologically suited to play in the upper register. It's my personal opinion that having large flat teeth hinders the upper register. I'm a product of the braces generation and my upper register didn't really solidify until I discovered Balanced Embouchure.


I think it's better to say it the other way around... Some people physiologically fall into playing in the upper register more easily.
I also think it's a bit of self-fulfilling prophecy though. Those who naturally have the 'knack' for it early on are playing on an embouchure that works for it, and so everything they do in all registers is building and strengthening that setting. For a lot of folks though, they can spend 15 years building an embouchure that sounds great up to high C and not much beyond that. And then to learn to adjust from there to extend into the upper register can be challenging both physiologically and psychologically.

Ideally, they'd have found the set that takes them across all registers early on and spent all that time on that setting. But instead, they need to change something, and the muscle memory and feel may be totally different for playing in the upper register, and the muscular development for one setting might not neccessary be useful for the other. And so players can end up in a situation where they either need to learn to play on two embouchures (I think a lot more players do this than is obvious), or they need to spend a lot of time (years) working on their 'high setting' to build endurance and control and to learn to play it in the lower register.
And that feels unnatural and might upset the muscle memory they've had for the last 15 years etc etc.

OR they use exercises that exaggerate the range of motion, and manage to connect the lower register to the upper setting this way and find a compromise. But it takes time.

And then that person thinks 'do I really care enough?' and the answer is often (quite reasonably imo) 'no'. But they might then say as their justification 'I'm just not built to play in the upper register' or whatever.

I'm of the belief that a student's embouchure isn't really right for them until they can 'touch' notes above high C with relative ease. And the sooner you can find that for them as a teacher, the easier their life will be long term. There's a lot of teachers out there where their litmus test for a student's embouchure is "Does it sound good on Low C" which is way too low of a bar to set, because you can play a good sounding low C in a hundred different ways.

BE is a great resource for getting the machine moving, which seems to be the biggest problem, lips getting held by the muscles and mouthpiece in a position that doesn't allow them to adjust.

The other thing that is useful is a little bit of downstream buzzing a la Reinhardt.
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steve0930
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 2:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Towawayzone
"I'm so frustrated" described me for first 4 of my 5.5 years as a player. Like you I experimented a lot. Greg Spence seemed to put me on an Open setting path. Balanced Embouchure (BE) took me in different direction. (Idea of BE - you let go of control - you don't know where it's taking you)

Destructo:
Quote:
I'm of the belief that a student's embouchure isn't really right for them until they can 'touch' notes above high C with relative ease.

Yes++
I decided that I would not stop bold experimenting (because every day we're honing something, right?)until I could touch high c easily. It took me 5 years to achieve this. If I had known how easy it can be could I have done it in 5 minutes? - I don't know. (For the record I don't actually aspire to high notes - rather I see them as a test of how optimized or Balanced is my embouchure.)

I am now at the stage of as Abontrumpet puts it:
Quote:
You need to work on "this is how 'I' want to play" and do that everyday.


Trumpet is great for assessing Attitude to the horn, to Life. "I'm so tired" OR "I'm so Close" ?

A year ago I changed my Attitude to notes above the staff - called them the "Easy notes" and now warm up with them every day. (Still doing workouts from Flexus to make sure I avoid the 2 settings trap Destructo refers to.)

Good luck and stay safe, Steve in Helsinki
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Shaft
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 8:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

🎺

Last edited by Shaft on Mon Jun 27, 2022 2:50 pm; edited 1 time in total
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towawayzone
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, everyone--how do I start experimenting with BE?
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Don Herman rev2
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

towawayzone wrote:
Thanks, everyone--how do I start experimenting with BE?


Check out the BE forum: https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=29

You can buy the book from Jeff Smiley: https://www.trumpetteacher.net/be_book.html
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