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brassmoose
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quick background: I played from 3rd grade to 12th (ended as 1st chair with an occasional high C). Took off 10 years & have played for the past 22. I have a desk job, so I'm not a full-time pro, but I do gig in clubs about once a week & I've learned that I have what it takes to play with touring funk/soul bands that I admire, but I'm too old for that kind of life now (and have a kid).

I recently re-evaluated my playing as my endurance was poor and my high D to E was unpredictable during 2 45 minutes sets with loud funk bands. I was always too tired to solo in the 2nd set as well. Not good in a funk band.
I have spent the past 5 months re-evaluating & I feel that I've made great progress. I'm really excited for the next 6 months. My goal is to have a consistent High G for those 2 sets.

There are many paths to the top of the mountain & your path may be different than mine. This is just what I've learned so far. And I would like to find an in-person teacher to shore things up even more.

In one word: efficiency.
In three words: efficiency, quiet, tongue.

- I now have the right mouthpiece (the smallest I can play without suffering, losing flexibility, and maintaining a sound I like)
- I only work on efficiency or being efficient. Always.
- I'm overblowing less (still a struggle)
- I use tension in my upper lip (getting better)
- I am using my corners more & and carefully strengthening them--not too much). The "Corners" book by Colin is great. Follow the instructions.
- I have learned that the tongue is everything for range. When I crack my high notes or get tired, I re-visit the tongue & use it better. This always helps. This changed everything for me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWcOwgWsPHA
- I take breaks equal to playing time in small increments. 30 seconds, or 2 minutes. But rarely play for more than 5 minutes at a time (then rest 5 minutes, or at least 2).
- I never practice for more than an hour at a time. I rarely have time for more than 2 one hour sessions per day, but I do have weekly rehearsals that are 3 45 minute sessions FWIW.
- The preface in Allen Vizzutti's "High Notes" PDF really helped me understand my embouchure.
- I revisited The Balanced Embouchure & the section on Focused Playing was very helpful.
- I consistently use the least air I need. I have very good lung capacity, so I can really blow if I need to (and when I shouldn't).
- I practice as quietly as I can with a mute for my whole range. I did this for any hour a day for a week & noticed a huge improvement in reducing lip pressure (and my endurance improved). Again, the tongue.
- Practicing/performing with ear plugs help me not overblow (mine are custom fit, so be careful with store bought ones & skull resonance). This helps me plays higher, softly, and solidly. Again, the tongue.
- I've learned that I can not play high notes loudly (well) without learning to play them softly first.
- I thought I needed the whole lip to buzz across the whole mouthpiece, like a string, but I learned to created a small aperture. Many people write about this, but almost no one really brought the idea home. Low notes are like a string ====. High notes are like a small --o--. Your mileage may vary here, especially.
- One concept I wish that I known decades ago: it takes 5 seconds for the air to go from lips to bell. Five seconds! I thought it was all about air flowing out of my horn.
- I thought I needed to buzz my lips. I realized the lungs, mouth, mpc, and horn are one instrument and that resistance in the mouth (the tongue mainly) and the mouthpiece create the pressure that induces the buzzing on your lips. In the staff, pull the horn off the mouthpiece as you play. You should not buzz. (Some argue this). I now only work to create a system that induces buzzing--not make my lips buzz to create a sound.
- The whole body should always be relaxed. Always. Entirely relaxed.
- Even if my face is too tired to play, I never hurt anymore. I wake up a little stiff, but never sore or feeling bruised or like I should take a day off.
- Every 2-3 weeks I day a day or two off. Life usually takes care of that for me
- I play something once for embouchure/technique. Then I play it again & only think of the music. I hear the notes & forget about everything else--I always sound better when I do this and I play so much better. I create music. That's the happy place.

Caveat: I do not have an established practice routine yet. That's the next step.

I can now occasionally hit F#-Ab above High C and am starting to work High F# and G into my gigs. Double C about once a month at home. But, consistently an F above high C over and over. I can do this even before I warm up (so satisfying!). I can do this on pretty much any size mouthpiece from 3C and larger, but best on my regular mpc (a James R New W5.5MS (#28 throat with a Marcinkiewicz Vizzutti backbore). W5.5MS is basically a shallow C (almost D) that's a little larger than a Bach 1.5C -- pretty much same size and depth as a Hammond 3S or Picket 1.5CD). It's large for many but I cannot usefully play anything smaller than a Bach 1.5.

I am not a teacher...so I defer to any teachers/pros/legends that refute what I say here. I'm glad to be corrected & learn.

I hope something here helps!
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

towawayzone wrote:
Thanks, everyone--how do I start experimenting with BE?

--------------------------
My understanding is that Balanced Embouchure is NOT a particular way of playing - that it is a well thought-out group of exercises and guided embouchure variations that allow the PLAYER to discover, develop, and strengthen various embouchure actions, and to learn what results they give FOR THAT PLAYER.
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towawayzone
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the link, and thanks brass moose for sharing your experience. I think my next steps are to absolutely zone in on playing softly and to check out BE.
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
- I realized the lungs, mouth, mpc, and horn are one instrument and that resistance in the mouth (the tongue mainly) and the mouthpiece create the pressure that induces the buzzing on your lips..


The trumpet with mouthpiece is the instrument. The mouth and tongue are not part of the instrument and don't really directly control anything other than the tongue releases the air pressure for articulation.

The "resistance" of the mouth and the mouthpiece do not create pressure. The lung state and exhalation effort create air pressure.



Quote:
- The whole body should always be relaxed. Always. Entirely relaxed


It is not possible to play "relaxed".

.
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mafields627
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

towawayzone wrote:
Thanks for the link, and thanks brass moose for sharing your experience. I think my next steps are to absolutely zone in on playing softly and to check out BE.


Go here (https://www.trumpetteacher.net/) and buy the book from Jeff. Read it cover to cover before you start working on the exercises. It's important to understand why you're doing what you're doing before you do it. Don't manipulate; just let the exercises do what they were designed to do.
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brassmoose
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2022 12:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kalijah wrote:
Quote:
- I realized the lungs, mouth, mpc, and horn are one instrument and that resistance in the mouth (the tongue mainly) and the mouthpiece create the pressure that induces the buzzing on your lips..


The trumpet with mouthpiece is the instrument. The mouth and tongue are not part of the instrument and don't really directly control anything other than the tongue releases the air pressure for articulation.

The "resistance" of the mouth and the mouthpiece do not create pressure. The lung state and exhalation effort create air pressure.

Quote:
- The whole body should always be relaxed. Always. Entirely relaxed


It is not possible to play "relaxed".

.


kalijah, like your lungs is the bag not part of the bagpipes? If you changed the size. material, or shape of the bag does it not affect the instrument? The arm that compresses it? The exit of the bag? The material of the connector?
Everything in a system is part of the system and thus affects the outcome. During the day, I am software developer. If I have terrible and uncorrected eyesight, it makes me more prone to writing a bug (variable b might look like a d to me but compile and deploy just fine)...my eyes are as much of the system as the compiler, cpu, memory, architect, or project manager.

As for relaxed, that is relative and not an absolute. Relaxed compared to sleeping? Relaxed compared to being chased by a bear? Any day I play more relaxed than the day before is relaxed. As Bruce Lee says, "The ultimate technique is no technique." That. to me, is the endgame of relaxed. Your mileage may vary, of course...however your music is best served.
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2022 7:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
As for relaxed, that is relative and not an absolute.


Relaxed is defined as a complete absence of muscular action. Effort, or muscular action, is what is relative. It can vary from very small to the maximum.

There is NOTHING wrong with muscular effort to play. And it is commendable to reduce the effort required for a particular result. Perhaps this is what you are referring to as "relaxed".

And yes. the lungs and lips are part of the "system", but they are not part of the instrument.
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gwood66
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2022 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

brassmoose wrote:
As Bruce Lee says, "The ultimate technique is no technique." That. to me, is the endgame of relaxed. Your mileage may vary, of course...however your music is best served.


I see your talents have gone beyond the mere physical level.

A good trumpet play does not become tense but ready.

They do not play the trumpet......it plays all by itself.
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2022 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
- I thought I needed the whole lip to buzz across the whole mouthpiece, like a string, but I learned to created a small aperture. Many people write about this, but almost no one really brought the idea home. Low notes are like a string ====. High notes are like a small --o--. Your mileage may vary here, especially.


The smaller the aperture area, the greater the flow resistance and the less efficient the system. A rim-to-rim vibration occurs in most players, especially on tones of significant loudness. And, of course, it provides the greatest area for air flow and less aperture self-resistance. This improves efficiency. A small "lateral" aperture gives only soft tones and squeaks.

For efficiency,
low notes are:
-------------------
-------------------

high notes are:
===========

If you observe the lip-function videos you just don't see this
--------O---------
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stuartissimo
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2022 2:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kalijah wrote:
Relaxed is defined as a complete absence of muscular action.

That is your definition. Another common definition for 'being relaxed' means a person is feeling comfortable, without unwanted tension or anxiety (which is probably what brassmoose was referring to).

And for a final bit of unrequested nitpicking: apparently it's physically impossible for muscles to be truly relaxed. Supposedly there's always a small bit of tension even when the muscle is in the uncontracted state...so technically you're correct in saying that true relaxation isn't possible .
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Robert P
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2022 3:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Im so tired Reply with quote

towawayzone wrote:
As a freshman in high school all I wanted was a high D. But I just couldn't get it. Six years later my range has not gotten any better despite daily practice and trying so many methods you wouldn't believe. Ive had lessons with some of the best teachers including Greg Spence, Bobby Shew, and Jim Manley, in addition to regular lessons with local professionals. If I completely dedicate myself to playing high notes, they become a little easier. When I take a light day, or forget about building range for a day, my high C all but disappears for weeks. When I do manage to eek out a high D, it lasts for 2 days, then it'll be gone for a month. Yes, all my practice has made me better, and yes, range is not everything, but it sucks barely being able to play a high C after so many years of effort. I just want to be able to play music and not have to woe about high notes.

What you're experiencing sounds a *lot* like my experience at that age - yeah, sometimes I could get higher notes A, B, C, maybe a D on a good day but it was nothing consistent, I never really had a handle on them, could never play them with any power, finesse or musicality. Most aggravating was the mouthpiece never felt anchored to my lips, it felt like the mouthpiece was slipping off the set when I tried to hold a higher, loud note.

If I could import my current awareness into my high school self who struggled with everything things would have been very different as far as my trumpet playing experience. Back then everything over the staff was an iffy question mark.

My experience now is very different - playing a high C for example isn't this anxiety-ridden - "Am I gonna get it??" experience. These days I expect to be able to play a loud high C cold if I want, first note of the day. This would have been impossible when I was in high school. The reason is I hadn't discovered the way to do it.

The general answer is you need to change the mechanics of what you're doing - even how you're placing the mouthpiece, what you do when it's placed, the teeth opening and alignment, alignment of the lips with the teeth - there should be some overhang of the lips over the edges of the teeth into the airstream, focus of the embouchure muscles, the tongue/mouth cavity, how you use the tongue as you ascend. The changes might be subtle but they're important. I can personally attest to the fact that you can practice for endless hours doing it a way that doesn't work and you won't make substantial progress. When you find the way that does work it's a totally different experience.

One point that might help - I'm very conscious of the reed that's created with the mouthpiece. What you're playing with is the tissue that's trapped inside the rim and the surrounding embouchure muscles transfer the correct balance of tension to that reed. Once you've set the mouthpiece, the tissue of the reed needs to relax somewhat to create just the right amount of tension to play.

Another point is it shouldn't require you to have a finely honed level of conditioning. If I were to lay off for a week, I'd fully expect to be able to nail an Ab over high C after a short warmup. Accuracy and endurance might not be quite as on target compared to practicing every day but I can still function.

For myself the elements I would define as having made the biggest difference - I moved my placement more to the center, I also shortened my upper central incisors a bit so they were even with the adjacent teeth which made a difference and I refocused how I used the embouchure muscles and made a study of becoming as aware as possible of what's going on with the various involved elements when playing.
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trumpet_bob_silver
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2022 9:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The answer might be hinted at in the title of your post. I've spent/wasted a few decades on it. I tried a few teachers. I looks like you have too. If they can't figure it out, disregard them. Figure it out yourself.

I'm assuming your doing some sort of routine. That's good to stay in some kind of shape.

Quiet tones are good. Uses the muscles more precisely around the embouchure. Doesn't bruise anything. It can make muscles work a lot more than normal.

The usual with the whole flow of breathing, pushing the air, relaxed throat, all that. I'm sure you've heard that before.

I think the edge of range is probably several things coming together. It's not like you just push air more and it's higher. Not like it's just tongue placement.

But to make progress... You said you're tired. Mentally tired? Probably. Tired of the situation. I would let that go but just make it a reminder of what the goal is so you don't forget. But are you physically tired? Are you sure? I found I was slowly wearing myself down. If you slowly bump up a routine, after a while it can do that. More push than the body's ability to recover. Do you notice any "free" improvement if you take a day off?

That's what I came here to say. If you're doing a routine and you want to push range, back off the routine. That way you have a little cushion, a little "squish" to push. Then you can actually do a push instead of beating a dead horse by trying to push range while trying to push everything in the routine too.

So say you actually did give range a push... And a push could be forcing it to happen -- More air, press the mouthpiece a little, make it happen. Or it could be backing off pressure, working the face muscle more, focusing the aperture, etc. It's probably more of a force though. You'd feel strain in the abs and face muscles, and probably from pressing. But you can't push the edge without stressing things a bit. Once a push is done, you need to recover though. Rest. Back off. Work on ease. Just let time pass so your body can heal. Maybe it's just a day. Maybe it's two weeks. After you recovered from a push, ease back so there's a cushion and then do another push. Repeat, repeat, repeat. If you're prepping for the push, actually doing the push, and then recovering, the body is going to respond to that. If something is off, you might start to notice some negative effect from that being emphasized. So notice it and fix it. Maybe some other part is weak and that fails.

Other things definitely related to recovery -- Make sure you're getting plenty of good rest. I usually get six hours of sleep, but 8-9 gets me "free" progress. More recovery for literally doing nothing. The trick is to actually follow through on getting extra sleep type of rest. Drink plenty of fluids. Eat plenty of protein. Eat more calories than your normally need so your body has energy to use to recover.

Those are things I would try. For me, it's cracked my range issue a bit. When I'm not focusing on pushing range, just doing the routine is good. That keeps things consistent. And it's easy to repeat things more in a routine to build up or push endurance at lower levels of notes. If there's more endurance at lower notes, that's a bigger base for high notes to grow on. But the same thing would apply for pushing endurance that way -- Push, but then be sure to actually recover from the push. If you back off, ease off, after some amount of time, you'll notice when it starts to feel good again, when it starts to feel like there's an extra cushion there if you need it. If you keep pushing and just beat things up each day, leave no time to recover, how is the body going to move beyond a static, stuck state like that?
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donovan
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

towawayzone - I know EXACTLY how you feel. While I had maybe a bit more success than you, I have struggled for the majority of my 36 years of playing the trumpet to figure out what I was doing wrong. The more I practiced, the worse I got. I had lessons with many of the great chop docs, and many of those lessons did help some, but I still had MAJOR deficiencies in my playing that kept me from playing at the level I desired.
It wasn’t until watching this video interview of Louis Dowdeswell talking about Reinhardt did things start to change:

Link


After watching this, I took a lesson with Chris LaBarbara (the person who taught Reinhardt to Louis) and several lessons with Dave Sheetz. Those two have turned my playing around. I took those lessons just over a year ago, and I’m playing leaps and bounds better than I ever have.

Here’s a video I made explaining my progression:

Link


I can’t recommend the Reinhardt info to you strongly enough. You need to learn your embouchure type, learn your embouchure track (and what that means) and you will soon be making progress. Let me know if I can help.
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RussellDDixon
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2022 6:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Donovan ... Who can I get with to figure this out ?
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kgsmith1
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2022 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We could solve x% of the chop problems in the world by just renaming the "High Range Development" forum as "Efficiency Development".

My first time actually using G above high C (not my strongest suit before or since) was when my fundamentals were falling apart from looking for a decent day job while finishing music school.

Schedule: 3pm-5pm, orchestra. 5pm-7pm, brass trio rehearsal and coaching. 7-7:04pm, run to get a slice of pizza for dinner while big band sets up. 7:05-9pm, big band; 9pm-12:30am, small group backing vocal jazz recording session.

Knowing I would be playing more or less 8+ straight hours, and that my face was going in overworked and underprepared. from 3pm on I limited myself to the level of effort I expected to have after my beaten up face had been through that day's schedule. Primary goal, avoid messing up the face anymore. Very secondary goal be able to play at all for the last two, which weren't required for graduation, but a lot more fun for me.

I played everything mezzo piano or softer if I could get away with it. Maybe mezzo forte in big band. By midnight, with a few good takes in the can, we were messing around with increasingly crazy versions of the ending, and I told the composer / producer if we could do one more take of the end with the last note up an octave.

I started on G top of the staff and just half valved up an octave, held it probably 10 or 15 seconds. Then again and again. Even overshot a bit on a couple takes, and the composer asked if I could just play an A instead, he was thinking of changing the voicing of the last chord. I gave him the stink eye real lead players give when music theory is mentioned, I could play G above high C now, the glory of my high notes made theory irrelevant.

Anyway, before that I was pretty similar to the OP. As a teacher once said, the best and worst thing about my playing was you could hear I would have ripped my left arm off if I'd thought that would make me play better.

You can spend a lifetime trying to find the right technical "system" to play difficult stuff and it doesn't matter, because great players don't try to play difficult stuff. They play so that everything is easy. Changing teachers, drills, and equipment won't help until the mental approach is functional.
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donovan
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2022 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RussellDDixon wrote:
Donovan ... Who can I get with to figure this out ?


Chris LaBarbara would be a good choice. I’ll email his contact info to you.
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TheHighNotes
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2022 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I may offer my perspective -

kalijah wrote:
Quote:
- I realized the lungs, mouth, mpc, and horn are one instrument and that resistance in the mouth (the tongue mainly) and the mouthpiece create the pressure that induces the buzzing on your lips..


The trumpet with mouthpiece is the instrument. The mouth and tongue are not part of the instrument and don't really directly control anything other than the tongue releases the air pressure for articulation.
The "resistance" of the mouth and the mouthpiece do not create pressure. The lung state and exhalation effort create air pressure.



Quote:
- The whole body should always be relaxed. Always. Entirely relaxed


It is not possible to play "relaxed".
.



Respectfully, you are the instrument. The yard of brass tubing in front of your mouth is merely the amplifier.

Relaxed effort is still relaxed, but takes effort. Quite the paradox of brass playing.




As for op - Now I skimmed the replies pretty fast so may have missed it, but I'm going to be super obvious anyway -

What is the quality of sound you are producing, my friend.

I have experimented a fair bit over the years, and while you need proper mechanics for your approach and physiology, the quality of sound should be the only absolute measure of how effective your setup is.
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2022 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Relaxed effort is still relaxed, but takes effort. Quite the paradox of brass playing.


Not a paradox at all. Playing requires muscular effort. That is not debatable.

Reasonable, calm and controlled effort? Well sure. A fine thing to work toward.
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TheHighNotes
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2022 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kalijah wrote:
Quote:
Relaxed effort is still relaxed, but takes effort. Quite the paradox of brass playing.


Not a paradox at all. Playing requires muscular effort. That is not debatable.

Reasonable, calm and controlled effort? Well sure. A fine thing to work toward.


I am glad your concept works for you.
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chrisroyal
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2022 12:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kalijah wrote:
Quote:
- I realized the lungs, mouth, mpc, and horn are one instrument and that resistance in the mouth (the tongue mainly) and the mouthpiece create the pressure that induces the buzzing on your lips..


The trumpet with mouthpiece is the instrument. The mouth and tongue are not part of the instrument and don't really directly control anything other than the tongue releases the air pressure for articulation.

.



Respectfully, I must disagree. The instrument is the entire connection from breathing apparatus all the way to the bell. The horn is just a tube that doesn't make music until connected to a capable player. Anything missing or not working correctly within that entire system (e.g. a slide missing , a valve stuck 1/2 way, the tongue locked in one inappropriate position, not enough air pressure for a given phrase, etc., or in combination) will result in everything from simple inefficiency (not optimum or desired sound) all the way to failure (no sound), and so many issues in between.
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