Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3309 Location: Endwell NY USA
Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2022 12:22 pm Post subject:
In the video at 58:08 thru 59:15 there is mention and discussion about the 'pivot stabilizer' and with emphasis on having the mouthpiece 'weight' on the lower lip, and to not drop the jaw when doing a descending slur.
I'd like to know more about Reinhardt's ideas and teaching about the importance of the lower lip, and whether any type of jaw movement (including in-out) was part of his teaching or recommendations. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
Joined: 28 Dec 2001 Posts: 6437 Location: AVL|NC|USA
Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2022 6:07 pm Post subject:
JayKosta wrote:
In the video at 58:08 thru 59:15 there is mention and discussion about the 'pivot stabilizer' and with emphasis on having the mouthpiece 'weight' on the lower lip, and to not drop the jaw when doing a descending slur.
I'd like to know more about Reinhardt's ideas and teaching about the importance of the lower lip, and whether any type of jaw movement (including in-out) was part of his teaching or recommendations.
The jaw drop for the lower register was always one of Doc's big no-no's.
Yes, the jaw may come out slightly for the upper register and in slightly for the lower register.
He used to tell us to keep our teeth just as close together as a good sound would permit.
He told me repeatedly to eliminate the jaw drop for the descending slur, and the best was to ensure I was doing that was to keep the "weight" on the lower lip during the descending slur.
If memory serves, he said the three most destructive things you can do are to drop the jaw during a descending slur, smiling to ascend, and tonguing between your teeth and lips.
Hopefully somebody else will chime in here. _________________ Puttin’ On The Ritz
Joined: 30 Oct 2012 Posts: 1838 Location: Austin/New York City
Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2022 11:32 am Post subject:
BeboppinFool wrote:
JayKosta wrote:
In the video at 58:08 thru 59:15 there is mention and discussion about the 'pivot stabilizer' and with emphasis on having the mouthpiece 'weight' on the lower lip, and to not drop the jaw when doing a descending slur.
I'd like to know more about Reinhardt's ideas and teaching about the importance of the lower lip, and whether any type of jaw movement (including in-out) was part of his teaching or recommendations.
The jaw drop for the lower register was always one of Doc's big no-no's.
Yes, the jaw may come out slightly for the upper register and in slightly for the lower register.
He used to tell us to keep our teeth just as close together as a good sound would permit.
He told me repeatedly to eliminate the jaw drop for the descending slur, and the best was to ensure I was doing that was to keep the "weight" on the lower lip during the descending slur.
If memory serves, he said the three most destructive things you can do are to drop the jaw during a descending slur, smiling to ascend, and tonguing between your teeth and lips.
Hopefully somebody else will chime in here.
In my experience, what helped me with this concept was to not think about mouthpiece pressure when doing a downward slur. I first thought about this concept as - "ok, really don't let up on the pressure and perhaps increase it so my jaw definitely doesn't drop". That didn't help me.
Instead, merely thinking about keeping the feeling of the downward slur as being on my bottom lip, instead of raising my horn angle and "falling" into the downward slur really helped me internalize the feeling of doing this correctly.
This may not be what Doc meant, but it's what works for me. FWIW - Brad Goode talks about this a lot and he mentioned it to me during a lesson as something I was struggling with some 5 years ago.
The phrase "staying with the jaw" was a BIG help to me, and I tell my students this frequently. _________________ www.mikesailors.com
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3309 Location: Endwell NY USA
Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2022 12:29 pm Post subject:
Mike Sailors wrote:
In my experience, what helped me with this concept was to not think about mouthpiece pressure when doing a downward slur. I first thought about this concept as - "ok, really don't let up on the pressure and perhaps increase it so my jaw definitely doesn't drop". That didn't help me.
Instead, merely thinking about keeping the feeling of the downward slur as being on my bottom lip, instead of raising my horn angle and "falling" into the downward slur really helped me internalize the feeling of doing this correctly.
This may not be what Doc meant, but it's what works for me. FWIW - Brad Goode talks about this a lot and he mentioned it to me during a lesson as something I was struggling with some 5 years ago.
The phrase "staying with the jaw" was a BIG help to me, and I tell my students this frequently.
----------------------------------------------
Mike and BeBoppinFool - thanks to both of you for your comments and thoughts about lower lip and jaw usage.
My experience (and from what I've read on TH, many others too) is that for many years I had not been using my lower lip and jaw to good advantage - I didn't know or think about it.
Truth is that back in the 60's one of my teachers did write a few short comments about it in one of my books - but I guess I totally missed it or misunderstood the importance - duh!
I'm sure I've got plenty of room for improvement, but at least now I have some additional ideas to consider and try. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
Joined: 28 Dec 2001 Posts: 6437 Location: AVL|NC|USA
Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2022 6:29 am Post subject:
JoshMizruchi wrote:
Good to see the Reinhardt method getting some love somewhere besides, well, here.
There’s a lot of Reinhardt love surfacing these days, Josh!
I prefer to call it the Reinhardt approach, which is not a method. He used to tell me there are as many systems as there are players, and that he regretted calling it the Pivot System. System implies that there’s a hard and fast way, which doesn’t take into account the vast physical differences between players.
Hence, his approach was to take into account the physical makeup of each student and go from there. _________________ Puttin’ On The Ritz
Joined: 29 Mar 2005 Posts: 603 Location: Newark, NJ
Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2022 12:42 pm Post subject:
BeboppinFool wrote:
JoshMizruchi wrote:
Good to see the Reinhardt method getting some love somewhere besides, well, here.
There’s a lot of Reinhardt love surfacing these days, Josh!
I prefer to call it the Reinhardt approach, which is not a method. He used to tell me there are as many systems as there are players, and that he regretted calling it the Pivot System. System implies that there’s a hard and fast way, which doesn’t take into account the vast physical differences between players.
Hence, his approach was to take into account the physical makeup of each student and go from there.
Yes, it's great to see the love toward Reinhardt. As many of you probably remember, many of us have gone through a lot trying to convince people that Reinhardt was even a legitimate approach at all. I just hope that even the people who feel overwhelmed or alienated by it understand and appreciate how many people it truly has helped.
Also yes, now that I think about it, "approach" is a much better word than method, so I agree there also. I agree that Pivot System might not be the best name, although it never bothered me personally (I never gave it much thought, but that's just me). Many people get very uncomfortable with the idea of the "pivot" and the "pivot" is for those who are new to this approach simply the natural movement that your chops make to make sound in the mouthpiece. That's all it is. So don't worry thinking Reinhardt is going to make you make some weird movement with your chops. It won't. Its aim is to make what you're already doing better. That's it. _________________ Josh Mizruchi
http://www.joshmizruchi.com
Joined: 28 Dec 2001 Posts: 6437 Location: AVL|NC|USA
Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2022 6:45 pm Post subject:
Mike Sailors wrote:
The phrase "staying with the jaw" was a BIG help to me, and I tell my students this frequently.
Just wanted to emphasize that this is a point that also has helped me greatly. Many times in my handouts Doc typed "Stay with the jaw!" Now Doug has me focusing on staying with my jaw as well. He is also trying to help me not move it so much (trying to keep it more stationary), which is a big challenge for me but also seems to be helping. _________________ Puttin’ On The Ritz
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3309 Location: Endwell NY USA
Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2022 2:22 pm Post subject:
The Mike Sailors interview is very interesting and gives a view of his life experiences and personality. Thanks for posting it.
Don't expect much 'technical info' or instruction, but there is a brief mention of Sailors' thoughts about learning the 'feeling of playing' at 54:45 - 55:25 . _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
Joined: 28 Dec 2001 Posts: 6437 Location: AVL|NC|USA
Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2022 6:42 am Post subject:
JayKosta wrote:
Don't expect much 'technical info' or instruction
I really liked his discussion of his conceptual approach(es) to playing. I really needed to hear what he was talking about here in my fledgling IIIA formative stages. The last thing I need is to fall into the same traps that kept me stumbling as a IIIB.
But I understand what you’re saying. You wouldn’t know it from the YouTube video but Mike is also a dynamite valve trombone/bass trumpet player. He probably has as much to say about doubling (if not more) as any other well-known brass doubler. _________________ Puttin’ On The Ritz
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