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TMT Regular Member
Joined: 01 Oct 2005 Posts: 73
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Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2022 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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That doesn't look like an E3L ... Different bell? |
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TMT Regular Member
Joined: 01 Oct 2005 Posts: 73
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Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2022 6:17 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Vin DiBona"]Here is my take.
Wrong horn. It is not difficult or taxing. It needs to be on a cornet or trumpet - Bb or C.
The vibrato completely out of place.
Here is Herseth setting the bar way up. Start it at 8:59.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIrwglmYw3o&t=594s
There are other great recordings of this, but this one is still magic. Ormandy's with Phildelphia is outstanding as is the Szell Cleveland.
R. Tomasek[/quote]
Not difficult or taxing?! |
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Tpt_Guy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Jul 2004 Posts: 1101 Location: Sacramento, Ca
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Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2022 8:27 pm Post subject: |
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TMT wrote: | That doesn't look like an E3L ... Different bell? |
I had the same thought at the opening of the piece, but at 8:51 the entire horn is visible. Sure looks like an E3L to me. _________________ -Tom Hall-
"A good teacher protects his pupils from his own influence."
-Bruce Lee |
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Trumpetinberlin Regular Member
Joined: 16 May 2020 Posts: 13
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Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2022 4:54 am Post subject: |
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Thank trumpetera!
I disagree also. Most of the players in britain at that time had a brass band background where the use of vibrato was common. Thank god we have recordings from that times where the orchestras didn‘t sound the Same and had personality in their sound.
BTW., i love Herseths playing but he didn‘t Set the standard on everything. |
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Steve A Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2006 Posts: 1808 Location: Toronto, Canada
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Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2022 6:03 am Post subject: |
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I like Herseth's playing here, like everyone else, but I also really enjoyed Willie Lang's playing. There's a certain floating lightness, especially in the offstage solos that I thought was really beautiful. Also, while there's much to admire in the CSO performance, I think the LSO captures more of the playful and satirical aspect of this piece. Kijé's is supposed to be a joke, and personally, I hear that in the LSO, but not really in the CSO. |
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dstpt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Dec 2005 Posts: 1287
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Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2022 6:13 am Post subject: Re: Maurice Murphy on his Olds Recording. |
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Vin DiBona wrote: | This certainly could go in the Video area, but the use of the trumpets in the London Symphony is very interesting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fr6eFP07uU0
Murphy on his Olds, the second on a Schilke, and the cornet part on a Schilke Eb. ...
R. Tomasek | Oh, I just noticed something very important: Go to 11:10 in the recording, pause it, and look just below the tuba player's wrist watch. You'll see in the slide a huge dent! I can't believe he performed on this instrument! How totally irresponsible of him to even appear on stage with a tuba in this condition!
Now what I want to know is if you feel the least bit tempted to take a look. |
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Andy Del Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Jun 2005 Posts: 2665 Location: sunny Sydney, Australia
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Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2022 11:40 am Post subject: |
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If the armchair critics could take a second to breathe, maybe they could remember this was recorded in the 1970’s . Styles were different, much more nationalistic. Personalities were very much more to the fore in playing and not anything like the bland ‘unisound’ one can hear coming out of some of the major orchestras.
As to choice of instrument, it’s personal. Anyone thinking Herseth just used his C all the time should sit down and watch some YouTube footage of the orchestra. You’ll be surprised at what he would do! And it sounded great.
Lastly, the original clip should prove that different horns can be used together, can blend and don’t detract from a performance. The best orchestras in the world (and they ain’t in the US) care very little for WHAT one plays, but instead of HOW one plays.
Cheers
Andy _________________ so many horns, so few good notes... |
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Mike Sailors Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Oct 2012 Posts: 1838 Location: Austin/New York City
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Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2022 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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Wow, I thought it sounded great!
I wonder if any of the patrons that night had the same thoughts as others on this thread. I'm imagining a couple of people walking out in disgust at the sight of an Eb trumpet being played in the opening 😂 _________________ www.mikesailors.com |
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GordonH Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Nov 2002 Posts: 2893 Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
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Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2022 1:39 am Post subject: |
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Umm, Willie Lang is great in this.
Not sure what the controversy is.
The piece is recalling military bugle and he evokes that wonderfully.
Previn must have been happy with it, and he was tough. _________________ Bb - Scherzer 8218W, Schilke S22, Bach 43, Selmer 19A Balanced
Pic - Weril
Flugel - Courtois 154
Cornet - Geneva Heritage, Conn 28A
Mouthpieces - Monette 1-5 rims and similar.
Licensed Radio Amateur - GM4SVM |
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dstpt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Dec 2005 Posts: 1287
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Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2022 4:27 am Post subject: |
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GordonH wrote: | Umm, Willie Lang is great in this.
Not sure what the controversy is.
The piece is recalling military bugle and he evokes that wonderfully.
Previn must have been happy with it, and he was tough. |
Agreed. When we view these great videos, are we listening "with our eyes?" If we eliminate the video and just listen to this recording, what are the primary things we critique as trumpet players? We might agree that it will be different than what conductors are critiquing and what most people attending a concert by a world-class orchestra are critiquing. What is the conductor first critiquing? The player doing the following, maybe?
1. hitting the right notes with correct rhythm
2. a “characteristic sound” with a clear sound/lip vibration, free of “crud” in the tone
3. spot-on intonation, or at least, "really close" most of the time
4. proper style / suitable musical interpretation of a given passage (dynamics, articulation, vibrato, various nuances of musical expressiveness, “time”/feel, et al)
The list could continue. I wonder what it’d be like for a great player like, say, Chris Martin to play some of these Prokofiev solo passages behind a screen for a few renowned conductors of our day (one conductor at a time). Let’s say Mr. Martin has a few different mpcs (including a “fluffy”) and his C tpt, a Bb cornet, and an Eb tpt. Of course, we can surmise that conductors will have preferences as to what they might prefer as they hear the different “matchings” of horns and mpcs, but would they really be able to tell a difference between a C tpt with a fluffy mpc and a Bb cornet with a shallow mpc?! It will all be in the same “ballpark” of tonation. The sounds he would make would still be something that the general public would say is part of a trumpet section. We as trumpet players can split hairs over this topic–and it can be very important at times–but I’d dare say that most conductors would only specify a certain tonal profile after they’ve heard one they really liked and found out from the player what he was using.
I shared this story before on TH…
...the story of Lawrence Foster years ago looking back at the section (of a major U.S. sym. orch.) during a rehearsal of the end of Petrushka. He sees the 1st trumpet using a modern piccolo trumpet with mute and says: "I want that on the big trumpet." The Principal player had his C trumpet sitting on a stand in front of him, but said, "Okay, Maestro. I'll have it here tomorrow." The next day, Foster seemed satisfied when he looked back during the run-through of that passage and saw what he thought was a big trumpet and said, “'Yes, that is what I want." (The Principal player was using his herald-bell piccolo!)
https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=146821&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0&sid=eebf5a6e7fb07c452415a20bdd06b80b
In that same TH thread, the topic of “composer’s intention” is also mentioned. How can we know what a composer “intended,” unless he expressed it in words, like in a mémoire, and even then, how specific would he need to be? The part is designated for “Cornet,” but what does that mean? Maybe he would have answered that it needs to be a "sweeter sound" than a normal orchestral trumpet sound. Could that be achieved with a deep mpc on a C tpt? Maybe. And what about the acoustics of the performance hall? Don’t some attenuate some of the “harshness” in a tpt sound, so that a C or Eb tpt would be “acceptable” by the conductor, fellow orchestra members, and audience? What if the performer feels “more secure” on an Eb tpt, that their note-accuracy alone would be more consistent? (Note that this is the first item in my list above.) I wonder if Maurice Murphey and the 2nd tpt player at the time had this rolling through their heads during the first rehearsal: “Hey mate, the part calls for cornet!” Maybe. Or maybe they thought: “Oh, cool…a new Schilke Eb tpt in the section! Perfect piece to give it a go!” Hahaha! |
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GordonH Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Nov 2002 Posts: 2893 Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
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Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2022 4:53 am Post subject: |
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In 1977 in the UK everyone was playing cornet parts on trumpet.
I can remember the novelty of a cornet in an orchestra in the late 80s.
It's more common now, but not common place. _________________ Bb - Scherzer 8218W, Schilke S22, Bach 43, Selmer 19A Balanced
Pic - Weril
Flugel - Courtois 154
Cornet - Geneva Heritage, Conn 28A
Mouthpieces - Monette 1-5 rims and similar.
Licensed Radio Amateur - GM4SVM |
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