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B&S Challenger 3137/1-Bach 180 37


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Irving
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2021 6:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think anybody has successfully cloned a Bach. You have to accept each horn for what it is. If you like B&S, or any other attempt at a Bach copy, fine. The frustration will begin if you compare your copy with a Bach, and you end up preferring the Bach.
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2021 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:
Crazy Finn wrote:
I'd be a little biased if I judged Bach Strad quality from some of the shoddy and honestly, sometimes hilariously shoddy workmanship I've seen on TR300s over many long years


Clearly our experience differs.

I base my opinions on multiple samples too. And of the many TR-300s I have seen over the years ranging from pristine to beat-to-H, the only ones that did not exhibit durable construction and excellent playing characteristics relative to other "student" horns were made in 2009. This is unique to the TR-300 and TR-300HII however, because every other TR-XXX model horn I have encountered was not remotely up to the same standard of construction or capability - though some were nice looking and could hold their own with a typical Alllora or JP.

- I will admit that the repair work I have seen inflicted on some of those horns though was either laughable or sad (depending on if you were the one who actually paid someone to do that)

I have spend hours upon hours for days play testing brand new TR300s in large batches (oiling valves, slides, playing, checking over) and going over rental returns and cleaning them up. I have also done this with store branded trumpets, Yamahas, and Jupiters. Not to mention my decades of dealing with the TR300s of my students.

Valve caps that don't thread, slides terribly misaligned, braces that aren't done precisely, sloppy soldering, valves that aren't fitted well. I'm not counting the terrible things that students do, I'm talking about things that I see on new ones or factory issues on used ones.

Yamahas and Jupiters (well, at least the newer ones) rarely have these issues. One can debate if they're better and sturdier student instruments but the assembly is generally better. In particular, I think the Jupiter is a far less robust instrument, but plays pretty well (at least the trumpets I've played). My Jupiter Euph isn't super sturdy and doesn't have an amazing sound, something one of my students even commented on. It's a lot less of a hassle to carry then my Olds, though.

HOWEVER, despite these issues - which aren't super common, but moreso than some of their established competitors - the TR300 IS a really solid student instrument. It can take the abuse better than the others mentioned, I think. The valves, which feel clunky and generally uninspiring when new can (with good usage) break in really nicely and feel far, far better used than they do new - maybe superior to their competitors. The rough workmanship on details seems to settle in after some use. Is this intentional? Does it just stem from the robustness of the build and materials? Maybe, but either way - it just works.

To be clear, I'm not a trained tech, I merely did this basic stuff and had to turn to actual techs with issues that were beyond my skills. However, these were trained techs that I actually (eventually) allowed to work on MY horns, repeatedly. The list of techs that have done that is actually quite short, and used to be a single name.

Anyway, my general point was not to judge Strad QC from their student horns. One should also not judge B&S quality from a few samples of variable heritage.

The B&S built horns I've dealt with - they made one of our local store branded brass lines for a time and I have one of their C trumpets have all been high quality, in my experience. I haven't liked how all of them played, but I thought they were solidly built. I should have bought a B&S flugel that went on clearance once upon a time, but I guess I do like the Yamaha I acquired later.

Anyway, I enjoy your contributions and we should all be honest about our personal biases - as you've acknowledged yours - myself included. I like your website and sometime I might pick up your book. Happy Holidays.
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Brent
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2021 6:32 am    Post subject: Challenger Reply with quote

Thank you, Josh Landress, for your input regarding this subject. I've considered B & S horns, but have read varying things. Your input is indispensable.

You're not going to find a more knowledgable person about trumpets than Mr. Landress. Super nice guy, to boot!


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annvill
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2021 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, thank you all. Let's go back to the initial question. What are the main differences between the two Trumpets?
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2021 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

annvill wrote:
Ok, thank you all. Let's go back to the initial question. What are the main differences between the two Trumpets?


Well, as I typed earlier, as best I recollect comparing side by side, what I believe was a Challenger I was
OldSchoolEuph wrote:
side by side with the current generation Bach
- it was physically lighter
- it spoke easier (significantly)
- it did not have as full a core tone
- it went to edge easier
- it was a lot less expensive


And I will add to that remembering the bell seeming harder than a Bach - which some people like the effect of, others do not.

As you can see in the posts that followed, others disagree.
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trickg
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2021 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Irving wrote:
I don't think anybody has successfully cloned a Bach. You have to accept each horn for what it is. If you like B&S, or any other attempt at a Bach copy, fine. The frustration will begin if you compare your copy with a Bach, and you end up preferring the Bach.

In a very real sense, even Bach didn't clone a Bach when you look at the differences between NY and Mount Vernon Bachs vs the Selmer Elkhart Bachs. Those trumpets are fundamentally different from the trumpets that Vincent Bach designed and built.

With that in mind, there was still something about the Bach ML/37 I started playing as a sophomore in high school - it did seem to have a particular sound and playability, even among other Bach Strads.

I may have erred when I had the National Guard band buy me the Shires in my signature line. I think in hindsight that maybe the A bell may have been a better choice. There are times I really enjoy the breadth of the B bell, and the ability to color the sound, but it just doesn't seem to have the core that I remembered from my old ML/37, and I think maybe the A bell would have had that.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2022 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:
annvill wrote:
Ok, thank you all. Let's go back to the initial question. What are the main differences between the two Trumpets?


Well, as I typed earlier, as best I recollect comparing side by side, what I believe was a Challenger I was
OldSchoolEuph wrote:
side by side with the current generation Bach
- it was physically lighter
- it spoke easier (significantly)
- it did not have as full a core tone
- it went to edge easier
- it was a lot less expensive


And I will add to that remembering the bell seeming harder than a Bach - which some people like the effect of, others do not.

As you can see in the posts that followed, others disagree.


I am resurrecting this zombie, in part because Josh and others were right and I think its always important to acknowledge that, but also in the interest of tempering my former remarks for future readers.

I just spent the mid-day at A&G Central as Buffet-Crampon came to SE Michigan for "Brass Tour 2022". The B&S horns I had previously encountered are not the same as what I saw today.

The Bach clone was still brighter, and a bit more responsive than the Bach 37. If the bell is the same weight, then I am surprised, but I will acknowledge that the horn in total is heavier than I remember and built SOLID. There was nothing flimsy about these horns and, while brighter than a Bach to my ear (and those around), it was an impressive horn that could easily be someone's preference depending on their sound concept and personal inputs. They still have less core than a Bach, and go to edge easier with what seems a harder bell temper, but within a reasonable window of player preference.

What really blew me away though was the "Heritage Line" trumpet. The MBX Heritage trumpet sang in my hands. This was the polar opposite of the B&S non-clone horns I had encountered from the past (as I believe some predicted in this thread). This is a horn that may be a good fit for an advanced teen and college student - perhaps in some cases beyond. It is every inch a pro horn, with none of the crude aspects of the pre-Challenger B&S designs I have seen in the past. Like any horn, its not right for everyone by any stretch, but for some, forget the name on the bell, what counts is how it plays for you.

Build quality was something I was really looking into, given the sketch history of VMI influence on all the Buffet brands. Standing out in this regard was a Courtois "step-up" trombone. While it is a Chinese stencil, and the rotary valve was clunky and stiff, the build quality otherwise was impeccable. The slide was built tight yet smooth, and solid enough to stand up to use. The trigger position was unusual, yet natural, and the balance was excellent (at least for my pudgy short build). The bell was, as might be expected, pretty sterile sounding - but this is a step-up horn, not pro. For being a China stencil, the fit, finish and durability were really quite impressive (if only the trigger worked - that part is sadly crude).

The other Courtois trombones were equally, or even more, well built, and featured high-end elements to improve tone and response relative to the step-up stencil (with rotary valves living up to the stereotype of German precision).

The low-point of this was the euphoniums - my instrument. The Besson Sovereign model is what most college prof's are pushing these days, and it was just a let-down. The fit & finish was poor (with the bell ferrule sitting crooked). The overall build was as light, and more flimsy, than those early Challengers. Most troubling, the valves are just kludged. I could not smoothly slur across multiple partials, and within partials, valve articulation was really muddy. The disruption to the embouchure from valve action was pronounced, and the horn, while playable, contributed to a mix of fog and fault. The bell was the one redeeming element, having a noticeable singing character, but one overpowered by the lack of resonant mass and awful valve articulation.

But this is a trumpet forum, and I wanted to acknowledge that, for me, the B&S Bach clones of today, while still bright, are built far more solid, and play far better, than the ones of the early century I remember. The MBX Heritage, which I had not heard of, is just amazing - said to be a pure B&S design, it plays with ease (for me) and is flexible (unlike a Bach clone) and projects with brilliance if you ask it to while warming up at low dynamics.

I still don't like the 3137, but can understand why others might feel differently. The MBX Heritage fit me like a glove - others, particularly those not enthused about looser centering, might feel differently. All I can say, is try it and see. Like me, you may be surprised.
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Last edited by OldSchoolEuph on Sun Jun 19, 2022 2:51 am; edited 1 time in total
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chapahi
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2022 12:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:


Courtois trombones .... Courtois? trombone? I don't know if that is more depressing, frustrating, or just pathetic.


Where's that coming from? I tried a Courtois trombone years ago. It was incredible for the price point of 380 euros.
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Brassnose
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2022 2:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

B&S makes good instruments. My favorite is the FBX flugelhorn, but other horns are good as well.

I understand that a lot of people may be against B&S for various reason (it was an eastern German company before 1989 and you don’t want to hear what some Germans think about old eastern German gear …) but now this is water under the bridge and they have become very popular here, especially for their price/performance ratio. And, after all, Gabor Boldocki and many other pro players play B&S, so they can’t be all THAT bad

I also understand that there are grim feelings about things that happened at B&S in the past with reputed brands being killed in the name of company politics, but still the current horns are good. As always in life, it goes to show once again that there is no black and white but lots of grey (and even color!).
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ALETRUMPET
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2022 12:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wanted to add my small comment about the B&S 3137/1. I don't claim to have the truth for everyone, but I don't understand a certain hatred towards this trumpet. I have played it several times because it is the trumpet of a dear friend of mine (He has been playing with me professionally for over 20 years). It is a trumpet, in my opinion excellent, especially if combined with the right mouthpiece. I don't think the question is whether or not it looks like Bach. Who cares, it's a great trumpet, from all points of view. It may sound more or less brilliant than Bach, but then it's a matter of taste. As far as I'm concerned it is an absolutely professional trumpet, the price is very low here in Europe. A great deal.

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invisiblehand
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2023 6:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:

I am resurrecting this zombie, in part because Josh and others were right and I think its always important to acknowledge that, but also in the interest of tempering my former remarks for future readers.


As a future reader, thanks! These posts are a great resource. Especially for folks like myself that are pure amateurs who don't have the same opportunities to talk to other plays nor try as many horns.

Given that folks concluded that the 3137/1 horns are brighter, there are a few references that the 3137/2 are "heavier". Should I take it that on average, the 3137/2 will sound more like a Bach 37?
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Irving
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2023 7:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Many manufacturers have tried to copy the Bach 37. So far none have duplicated it. That includes the B&S. If you want the sound of a Bach, then you won't be happy with a copy. If you like the B&S for what it is, then go for it.
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TrpM
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2023 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

invisiblehand wrote:

Given that folks concluded that the 3137/1 horns are brighter, there are a few references that the 3137/2 are "heavier". Should I take it that on average, the 3137/2 will sound more like a Bach 37?


have a look at the post from the B&S North America representative towards the end of the first page of this thread from 2015 explaining the differences between Challenger I and II models.

https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=134459&highlight=challenger
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invisiblehand
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2023 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TrpM wrote:

have a look at the post from the B&S North America representative towards the end of the first page of this thread from 2015 explaining the differences between Challenger I and II models.

https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=134459&highlight=challenger


Thanks! That's a good reference that the II bells are larger accounting for the weight difference.
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Irving
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2023 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Uh, that rep from Buffett-Crampon basically said that both horns are the same. Which is not true. He also said..."This difference of a 1/4 inch diameter accounts for the weight difference of the bell." This statement is totally ridiculous. The bell weighs more because it is made out of a heavier gauge brass. A 1/4 inch size difference is not going to make a bell any heavier, by any degree that would matter, especially if the thickness of the brass is the same. Another point is that there were , rather, are German made B&S trumpets being made to this day, whereas the trumpets that were being made by Buffett-Crampon, which at one time were being used to make the Sonare line of trumpets, are no longer being made. I don't know if Buffett actually made any Challenger trumpets. Sonare first started making trumpets by using a Challenger 1 B&S, made in Germany, which they modified, and then started making their own trumpets, made in the USA.

If any of this is wrong then chime in.

So, to give the rep the benefit of the doubt, let's say that his info is obsolete regarding the B&S Challengers being made today.
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Heinz
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2023 12:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In december 2022 I tried the Bach 180-37, the B&S 3137/2 and 3143/2.

The Bach was noticeably brighter than the 3137/2, and a little bit brighter than the 3143/2. I bought the 43 because I liked the sound the most, and I think it's a very fine horn in it's own right.

So if the 3137/2 is the 'real' Bach clone, it doesn't sound the same.
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wee steve
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2023 3:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is a very interesting topic. I’m a huge B&S fan and have owned both a challenger 2 and a Bach 37.
The thing to note is that when the challenger Trumpets came out there was a massive difference in price between the 1 which was marketed at the intermediate market and the 2 which was the pro. I know this is no longer the case as they are now both pro market horns.

The next question is was the Challenger a Bach clone, yes 100% but with a B&S spin in manufacturing techniques.

The ‘story’ I was told from an incredibly reliable source was that B&S took one of the top guys from the LSO to Germany, he’d visited Phil Parker’s and picked up the 3 best Strads. They spent time in Germany with these 3 horns and chose the best bits from each horn to come up with the Challenger 2. Just to clarify I Bought my challenger 2 in London around about the year 2000 and frequently spent my pocket money and time in Parkers. I have a suspicious of who the designer might have been but I have zero basis for that.

This brings me to how the horns feel, play and sound.

This is purely my opinions.

Tone, both great but the B&S was brighter and the Bach darker. Both projected quite well.

The valves, again both good but the Challenger wins.

The blow and response, both quite equal here.

The weight, the strad to me felt slightly heavier and more solid.

The build, both built well. Both instruments can have lacquer problems.

Which one did I prefer? Definitely 100% the Challenger 2. Apart from my Eclipse’s the Challenger 2 is the only horn I had sentimental value to.

Just to be 100% clear the strad I had was a 1980s strad and the challenger 2 was late 90s. I’d say they are both good horns but if you want a bargain get a Challenger 2.

What did I not like about these horns?

Bach felt dull and boring. I never felt inspired by it.
B&S was bright but could do with a tiny bit more core to the sound.
Also the B&S 3rd valve slide could fire across the stage on a gig.[/b]
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Irving
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2023 5:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice post Wee Steve. If you are familiar with the Challenger 1, how would you compare it to the Challenger 2? I have a Challenger 1, and It is OK, but I prefer the Bach for it's richer sound and more open blow. The B&S has a tighter blow IMO, though so did the Bach when I first got it. I changed the lead pipe and it is more open now. I guess we managed to adapt to each other somehow.
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wee steve
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2023 5:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have the Challenger 1 flugelhorn.
Again it’s a very well built flugel, great valves like all B&S instruments. A nice sound. It’s not a top range of the range instrument like the Eclipse and Kanstul which seem to take that spot for Flugels but I’d argue it’s definitely a pro flugelhorn. As far as I’m aware, the Challenger 1 and 2 trumpets have minor differences, the two has more options like a reverse leadpipe, more choice of bells like sterling silver for example and o rings on the valves but the main components are now quite similar. The build quality is just as good.
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Manuel de los Campos
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2023 7:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Irving wrote:
Nice post Wee Steve. If you are familiar with the Challenger 1, how would you compare it to the Challenger 2?


Although I was very enthousiastic about my Challenger 1 that enthousiasm disappeared after the honnymoon: Compared to my late Vincent Bach 37 from the 70's the Challenger turned out to be stuffy and missed the core in sound that you can find on any good Bach trumpet. The Challenger 1 was well made I'll have to say.
As I allready mentioned somewhere else on this forum a few months ago I had the oppertunity to try the Challenger 2 from the guy next to me in the orchestra, we did a Haydn symphony and contempory piece from a Dutch composer, I showed up with my workhorse: Getzen Eterna LB from 'The Dark Ages'.
Now this trumpet, I mean the Challenger 2 blew me away: I liked it as much as I like my Getzen Eterna; easy to blow, easy upper register, very well in tune, very good valves and indeed, laquer problems

As in "You get what you pay for" the costlier Challenger 2 is way better than the Challenger 1 and that is right.

If in doubt, go for the Challenger 2
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