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When did Yamaha horns get accepted as mainstream pro?


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thecoast
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2022 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Notlem wrote:
https://www.everythingtrumpet.com/schilke/Biography_and_Background.html


Thanks for the link. Great reading.

Quote:
From my perspective,[...]they make good quality horns and the past is the past. They have become the power house they are, so in the end, unless for research, does it really matter?

-marc


Well, the OP included an allusion to the emerging Chinese manufacturing improvements. I'm trying to figure out what historical process led to the acceptance of Japanese-made horns, to trace possible parallels that would take Chinese horns to reach the level of acceptance that the Japanese achieved. Somebody or some company might be able to use that to either make that happen for the Chinese--or in the hands of bad actors, prevent it from happening.

So far, what I've seen is that (1) a particular company took the lead--that is, Yamaha happens to be Japanese; (2) Yamaha seemed to already have had traction (no pun intended) in the motorcycle world (see https://global.yamaha-motor.com/stories/history/timeline/), so the brand had standing; (3) Yamaha kept in tune with Renold Schilke's forward-looking views of continuous improvement to the trumpet (and obviously other wind instruments); (4) they engaged in intelligent marketing through artist endorsements and contracts with US schools.

Right now, there are no real leaders (from the point of view of this American) in the production of Chinese musical instruments. Tianjin Jinbao (or just Jinbao) is a large-scale instrument manufacturer. On their website, trumpets are not even listed. It's a company name I've seen while web surfing for brass. But America does not have a Chinese brand name that is a household word, even though the "Made-in-China" tag is all but ubiquitous--to the point of cliché of ridicule. So far, Chinese instruments seem almost exclusively to be perceived as recyclable metal at worst or, best case scenarios, edging close to making decent copies.

Indulge me another 30 seconds, please. Chinese instruments are not coming of age through the back door. Rather, they are making their presence and reputation through the front door: American brands that manufacture in China and then bring into their shops for tweaking. Examples that come to mind are Austin Custom Brass, Cannonball, and Dillon Music. But they don't emphasize the Chinese connection even if they mention it in passing.
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Yammie
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2022 5:40 pm    Post subject: Timeline Reply with quote

If a dissertation states that Yamaha’s first professional trumpet was the 6000 series, that student should have failed their defense!

I first met Bobby Shew in 1983, and he had been playing the 636B for some years at that point. He endorsed Olds until at least 1974 (I have a 1974 Olds mellophone and Olds marching trombone that were Bobby’s.) There was a Yamaha ad in the late 70s showing Bobby Shew, Bob McCoy, Walt Johnson, and Buddy Childers endorsing their horns.

Three digit Yamahas were a collaboration with Schilke, and were excellent horns throughout the lineup. When they introduced the 6000 series in about 1983, they had the 6310B (M), 6335 (ML) and 6345 (L) bore horns designed to compete with Bach, but they also had the 6320 (ML) and the superb 6340ST (.463, ML+ or L in Yamaha nomenclature) and the 6320 and 6340 were very well received by pros. I worked at Disney at the time, and those horns were everyplace.

The first Shew-endorsed 6000 series was the 6310B, soon replaced by the 6310Z.
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thecoast
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2022 11:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Notlem wrote:
https://www.everythingtrumpet.com/schilke/Biography_and_Background.html

Thanks for the link, Marc. Very interesting and informative.

Quote:

From my perspective, […] they make good quality horns and the past is the past. They have become the power house they are, so in the end, unless for research, does it really matter?

It does matter. The original post raised the question of Chinese design and quality manufacturing being presently where Japanese products in general were quite some time ago. Based on historical parallels (if any), could Chinese professional brass winds (and other instruments for that matter) achieve the current status of Yamaha professional instruments?

If Chinese brass instruments are to go from being considered recyclable metal to professionally sought after, what would it take? Well, how did Yamaha do it?

Though I think Japanese professional instruments gathered momentum in a particular context I will briefly outline, China is going another route.

(1) Japanese professional instruments developed not through Japanese musical instruments generally, but through the specific, established brand name that was and is Yamaha. Yamaha motorcycles, for example, had garnered relatively quickly a significant reputation. See https://global.yamaha-motor.com/stories/history/timeline/.

(2) Yamaha professional brass wind development began when they hired Schilke "as a brass instruments development consultant." See https://asia-latinamerica-mea.yamaha.com/en/products/contents/winds/50th/index.html. No need to educate anybody here on the colossal stature of Renold Schilke as either a musician or as a designer and builder. Not coincidentally, their global motorcycle production growth began around the time they started developing pro horns, per time lines above.

(3) Yamaha worked with American professionals to gain entrance and grow within the professional American horn market, as well as within school musical program market.

There is no Chinese leader with a household name in America, even though the "Made in China" label is nigh unto ubiquitous. But what has China done? Market pressures have led American manufacturers that are recognized among the trumpet community to design in America but then manufacture in China horns that bear their brand names. They then take the horns into their American shops to make adjustments that our community can live with on account of these reputable American name brands. I can think of BAC, Austin Custom Brass, Dillon Music, and Cannonball off the top of my head. And we buy their horns. Chinese made horns. Do Chinese manufacturers honor American design trade secrets? I don't know.

So communist Chinese horns are developing an American market by coming into capitalist America right through our front door. Ingenious? Clever? Successful? Time is telling.

Quote:
Why did Ferrari become so respected? Reliable cars? 😇 Good designs? Racing? Just good marketing?

Yamaha, just like Ferrari, became respected for all of the reasons you gave.
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jazzjezz
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2022 12:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is the basic question correct?
Japanese manufacturing is regarded as the model of quality and efficiency for many industries. Post WW2 "Kaizen" practices as embodied in the Toyota Production System are the model for "lean" and "continuous improvement".
A focus on quality and efficiency as opposed to cheapest price.
Yamaha started off as a musical instrument production company (hence the brand logo of three tuning forks), they started making wind instruments in 1965.
Did they ever have a reputation for making cheap low quality instruments?

I like my YTR634 from the '70s.

Tuning forks invented in 1711 by a trumpet player - who knew?!
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mr oakmount
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2022 12:25 am    Post subject: Yamahas Reply with quote

I remember that in the 1980s (at least in Europe) Yamahas were considered a consistent and reliable second best, but for half the price of "the best" plus more reliable tuning and quality control.

I had an early Yamaha Rotary C (three digit model number starting with a 4), and my dear Viennese colleagues (brandishing their brand new gold plated Lechners) called me "the motorcycle trumpeter" (even though Yamaha had built instruments way before they went into motors).

Suffice to say, I had no trouble blending in with them (using a huge Breslmair G1 mouthpiece) and my C2, C#2, D2, Eb2 and E2 were spot on, which is more than could be said about some other C-Trumpets

It was only when the Xenos came out and later when US principal trumpeters switched from Bach to Yamaha that people around me started regarding them as potential first choices. My main horn nowadays is a roughly 30-year-old 6335GH with a custom made mouthpipe and receiver (incidentally made by Mr Manfred Fehrer who lives literally on the other side of the road where Joseph Haydn was born).
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LaTrompeta
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2022 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Re the OP. I think that "disdain" for Chinese horns is evaporating over time, but I do recognize what you are saying. Maybe it also has something to do with the general geopolitical situation with China as well as the reputation of the instruments' quality. I have played several "Chinese-made" horns and been very impressed with them...still not top-of-the-line Yamaha impressed but they are quality instruments at a very fair price.

Also, would like to clarify there is a difference, of course, between Taiwanese instruments and mainland (PRC) instruments.
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jeirvine
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2022 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

An interesting parallel is the bike components industry, where Japanese companies like Suntour and Shimano were making very nice gear by the mid-70s. It wasn't until about 1984 that they were accepted in the pro peloton, when it was obvious they won races, and just worked better than the European models from Campagnolo and Simplex.
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LaTrompeta
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2022 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jeirvine wrote:
An interesting parallel is the bike components industry, where Japanese companies like Suntour and Shimano were making very nice gear by the mid-70s. It wasn't until about 1984 that they were accepted in the pro peloton, when it was obvious they won races, and just worked better than the European models from Campagnolo and Simplex.


That's a great comparison. I'm a cyclist and Shimano is the default go-to for me. Dura Ace is unreal. Works better than both SRAM and Campognolo.
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Subtropical and Subpar
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2022 11:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LaTrompeta wrote:
Re the OP. I think that "disdain" for Chinese horns is evaporating over time, but I do recognize what you are saying. Maybe it also has something to do with the general geopolitical situation with China as well as the reputation of the instruments' quality. I have played several "Chinese-made" horns and been very impressed with them...still not top-of-the-line Yamaha impressed but they are quality instruments at a very fair price.

Also, would like to clarify there is a difference, of course, between Taiwanese instruments and mainland (PRC) instruments.


Oh, could you say what Chinese horns impressed you most? I can't recall any recent TH conversations about them and aside from Jinbao I don't think I could name any brands. I think people are increasingly aware that Taiwanese makers like Carolbrass and Jupiter have been making very nice horns lately, but I for one know nothing about Chinese horns. I'm curious about the market and the prices they command. Always looking to expand my knowledge of the world of trumpeting; that's why I'm here!



To an earlier poster, a major difference between Yamaha and Ferrari is that Ferrari famously and purposefully keeps their supply below customer demand. Say they could build x cars per year and the demand is 1.5x. They will build 0.5x cars. I don't think any brass manufacturer intentionally does this (the Monettes and Harrelsons and AR Resonances may not build enough to satiate demand but that's a function of their being small shops rather than a deliberate business model).
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2022 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, for Chinese trumpets, instruments where I know for a fact they are manufactured in the PRC, I can think of a couple of brands. Bill Pfund trumpets are made there (and tweaked by him at his workshop in Colorado) and I know that ACB has a line, I think it's called Manchester, that are also a similar type of deal. They feel and play like quality instruments.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2022 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's only a matter pf time. I remember as a kid in Japan, seeing cheap products but much industriousness. A decade later back in Japan, while the Japanese products were getting worldwide respect, Korea was cranking out cheap stuff. And now we see where Korean products are. I think next is China.
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CalicchioMan
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2022 2:20 pm    Post subject: YAMAHA TRUMPETS Reply with quote

All I can say is they are great trumpets!

Best,

Scott
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2022 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
It's only a matter pf time. I remember as a kid in Japan, seeing cheap products but much industriousness. A decade later back in Japan, while the Japanese products were getting worldwide respect, Korea was cranking out cheap stuff. And now we see where Korean products are. I think next is China.

I remember the prevailing opinion during my childhood that Japanese products were substandard. After a little google foo I ran across this article that states the military goods after ww2 were on par with the best. The domestically marketed goods were of good quality, and those goods exported from Japan of lower quality.

If true, I wonder how something like a trumpet would fall on that continuum.
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cbtj51
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2022 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When?

I was and am a very long term Benge worshiper (like there was any other option), definitely not a mainstream anything guy, and I had never really thought about Yamaha in any terms other than motorcycles and (with a chuckle) barely even then (I was a Triumph 650 nut for a while, you know, kinda' like my Benge thing). Heck, I didn't even know that they were in the musical instrument business until one day in '84...

Seriously! A very good friend came over to my house one afternoon after a month long horn shopping safari sporting a NEW Yamaha YTR 6335S. Never heard of it before!!! He was a raving lunatic about how great it was (people that grew up in the 60s and 70s acted like that a lot about a lot of stuff)! I played it for more than an hour. Long story short, it took me more than a month to figure out the finances but I finally got my own, a new monster, Serial # 0020XX!

I took it to my regular Latin gig asap and my long time Big Band gig a few days later. Many of my bandmates gave it the GH Seal of Approval (not that I needed it 'cause I was officially hooked) and it was to become my favourite for a long time. My one regret, I traded it to my old college roommate for a very low mileage YTR8335RGS (in my signature). Jim Becker gave it a thorough inspection and after minor body work and a PVA it too is a new favourite and in regular use! Would I get another one? In a heartbeat if I had a need or want or $$$ (retiree budget...sigh!).

The 6335 and 8335 are very different animals, but each great in their respective forte's!

More players in my area use Yamaha trumpets than anything else (many pros and their students) with Bach a close 2nd (many amateurs, hobbyists, and old guys like me).

Life is short!

Mike
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2022 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jeirvine wrote:
An interesting parallel is the bike components industry, where Japanese companies like Suntour and Shimano were making very nice gear by the mid-70s. It wasn't until about 1984 that they were accepted in the pro peloton, when it was obvious they won races, and just worked better than the European models from Campagnolo and Simplex.


Interesting parallel. Suntour was the superior product, but Shimano spent marketing dollars wisely. They got their products out there, everywhere from the wretched Positron system imposed on hundreds of thousands of Sears Free Spirit bikes. If memory serves, Suntour introduced their own indexing system but the first generation was terrible and they had been so thoroughly outmarketed that their company didn’t survive. Shimano kept improving indexing until it just worked great.

Yamaha spent money getting their horns in the right hands in the 70s, but their genius was in partnering with Schilke early on BEFORE targeting the pros. They built a great base of knowledge that they have leveraged ever since. They spend wisely on marketing, they support their flagship artists with marketing dollars to help make events popular, and they continue to make their products better. Though I’m not sponsored, I’ve played their equipment since 1984, and a lot of pros I respect do the same. To close the analogy, they started with a Suntour lead, then never squandered it!
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2022 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can only speak from personal experience as I'm sure most of us can. When I went to college in 1991, it was pretty much Bach for Bb and C trumpets but some people had Yamahas for Ebs and pics (instead of the usual Schilkes). After I graduated, I noticed more Yamaha Bbs and Cs out there and then they became on par if not the preferred brand of a lot of orchestral players at least to my perception. I'm still not a big fan of Yamaha trumpets (I play Shires mostly), but they are certainly part of the conversation these days as the desirable trumpets to get.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2022 9:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I rarely play these days. Once in a while, I have the urge, so I grab my mouthpiece and jaunt over to the local music shop. They have a selection of newer Yamahas, including the Artist series.

All I can say is....Oh. My. Goodness. The new artist series III horns are SO damn easy to play. Yeah. I used to be a Bach "gotta have that core" kinda guy, now I'm like nah, Yamaha all the way.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2022 5:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've had Chinese horns coming through my band room for all sixteen years I've been teaching. My personal observations are these:

1) The trumpets and trombones CAN be good. In fact, they can sound just as good as a name brand horn. These are the most consistent ones that come through.

2) The woodwinds are a total crapshoot. A few can play well, most have significant adjustment issues. Most cannot be adjusted without the pot metal rods and posts breaking.

3) NONE of my local repair shops will touch these horns because of the low quality of the metal and the inability to get repair parts. I tell my beginner parents this up front, but they still show up with them. They would rather buy a new ebay horn than drop $200+ to repad a second hand name brand horn.
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Tony Scodwell
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2022 9:18 am    Post subject: Yamaha acceptance Reply with quote

I feel the current Yamaha trumpets and flugelhorns are as popular as they are is due to the overall quality and playing characteristics. They are fine instruments and obviously favored by many top players, both symphonic and commercial. That said, the company really went after schools and pretty much dominate the university bands these days. Pros were also approached and many switched from their previous favored brands along with a poster to hang on the wall. Unlike the old days when major players were gifted instruments, today the horns are offered at wholesale to them. In my opinion the "free" horns of yesterday was often misused with a lot of horns getting sold off even though still being endorsed by the recipients. Many "endorsers" these days simply get the ability to list their names as artists on their resume and the schools get slick posters to hang in the band room which is not a bad thing.

Yamaha is fanatical in quality control and you will always get a beautifully made instrument from them. It may not be what you're looking for in sound production but quality is top notch. I know for a fact that selling horns in the Japanese market can be tough. The quality and fit and finish has to be Rolex watch standards often overriding the way it plays.

Taiwan is producing some of the best horns these days and to confuse them
with China is a stretch. I'm sure that will change in time with people like Eastman today producing some really fine instruments. The Chinese violins are seriously good and of all places, Viet Nam is coming with woodwinds.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2022 12:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Yamaha acceptance Reply with quote

Tony Scodwell wrote:


Yamaha is fanatical in quality control and you will always get a beautifully made instrument from them. It may not be what you're looking for in sound production but quality is top notch.


This 100% is why Yamaha is the first brand on my recommended instruments list for my beginners. I know that if they walk in the band room with a Yamaha, regardless of instrument, they will have a student horn that will last their entire middle and high school years.

Also, don't overlook the fact that Yamaha is the ONLY brand where a band director can fully outfit a program with quality gear. Yamaha marching brass are the best. Yamaha concert percussion is great. Yamaha drumline stuff is 1A for some and 1B for others. With every other brand you're having to research the models, name brands, some don't have marching battery, etc. There's something to be said for having ONE name on everything when it comes to brand recognition.
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