Joined: 23 Apr 2022 Posts: 79 Location: Seattle, WA
Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2022 11:01 pm Post subject: Embouchure change advice?
After a 6 month introspection/safari, I have realized that my tongue needs to be in a certain position (à la Allen Vizzutti written advice) to play high notes and to play efficiently overall. I have had success with Allens‘s advice to prove him correct. However, when my mouthpiece is engaged, it forces my lower lip into my mouth over my bottom teeth & my lip blocks my tongue from reaching that position. I am more successful when I move my mouthpiece lower, but it means my upper lip is significantly engaged into the mouthpiece. After some experimentation I am more successful with a smaller mouthpiece but it means lower lip is now supporting the mouthpiece in a thinner portion of my lip and I am concerned about the lack of lower lip support.
I feel like I can solve this myself but I’m at risk of making perhaps a poor embouchure change decision pared with a mouthpiece change to a much mich smaller mouthpiece than I have ever played before.
I am looking for expert advice from someone who has solved many many of these types of problems. Preferably from someone in the Seattle area for local lessons, but I am open to remotes lessons, or general advice.
I play in Funk and soul bands for multiple sets & I need range and endurance against amplified bands of 10+ instruments.
While I can't see specifically what you're doing, in principle there's nothing wrong with your lower lip protruding past the edge of your bottom teeth - in fact it's necessary. *Both* your lips need to be over the edge of the teeth and form a reed that you blow through.
Is what you're describing the lower lip mushing way back over the lower teeth, like you're sort of swallowing the lower lip red meat?
From the mouthpiece side it should look something similar to this with possibly some variation in how much top/bottom lip you're using. My personal set is closer to 50/50 top/bottom than this video. Notice that the teeth aren't visible through the aperture when actually playing - both lips are over the edge of the teeth.
Yes. I think this situation is new. I made a minor adjustment to my upper lip to help reduce intrusion into the mouthpiece cup and I think the consequence was a slipping in much further so much that my tongue gets crowded and can’t compress against my upper teeth/gumline.
I have one of those cut away mouthpieces so I can see where my lips are and they are perfectly fine in their position (2/3 top & can adhyst to 1/2) but the backside of my lip just gets in the way. I’m playing pretty much a Hammond 3 so kind of between a buck 1 1/2 and a buck 1 1/4 and I have some success with some smaller mouthpieces in terms of lip protrusion but not in terms of sound. Tonight I figured out how to place my tongue against my lips so that I can compress and go above G above high sea but it feels kind of wonky and like a new development that I don't trust.
I have a suspicion that I just need a minor adjustment and perhaps to scale down to a Hammond 4 (Bach 1 1/2 or 3). But I have not played on a mouthpiece more than a Bach 1 1/2 in decades.
Ultimately this is a question that only you can answer, but I'll give some general thoughts:
1. If you like the way you sound and the mouthpiece feels comfortable in the position it is in, you likely don't need a conscious placement change. If you always feel uncomfortable/mild pain at the end of the day, then perhaps it is needed.
2. Don't combine a mouthpiece change with an conscious embouchure placement change.
3. There are some changes that will occur on their own as you chase better and more efficient playing. Allow those changes to happen naturally and don't force anything either way.
My take: you are going through initial experimentation. Give it 3-6 months before you consider any major changes. Keep your rim the same for the moment being and just see how everything shakes out. Likely you are consciously doing something extreme and as you get more comfortable the mechanism you're describing might fall somewhere between where you were and where you are. Also a part of the equation that isn't addressed is what happens to your peak dynamic with the new stuff. Id prefer a strong high F than high notes without power.
Yes. I think this situation is new. I made a minor adjustment to my upper lip to help reduce intrusion into the mouthpiece cup and I think the consequence was a slipping in much further so much that my tongue gets crowded and can’t compress against my upper teeth/gumline.
I have one of those cut away mouthpieces so I can see where my lips are and they are perfectly fine in their position (2/3 top & can adhyst to 1/2) but the backside of my lip just gets in the way. I’m playing pretty much a Hammond 3 so kind of between a buck 1 1/2 and a buck 1 1/4 and I have some success with some smaller mouthpieces in terms of lip protrusion but not in terms of sound. Tonight I figured out how to place my tongue against my lips so that I can compress and go above G above high sea but it feels kind of wonky and like a new development that I don't trust.
I have a suspicion that I just need a minor adjustment and perhaps to scale down to a Hammond 4 (Bach 1 1/2 or 3). But I have not played on a mouthpiece more than a Bach 1 1/2 in decades.
You're using voice to text aren't you.
Keep in mind that while tongue position is important there's a more to playing higher than tongue position, or any single element - there are multiple parts that have to come together.
Not sure why your lips would be impeding your tongue - I tongue against the top teeth, the tip of my tongue doesn't come anywhere near my lips unless I make a conscious effort to use the tongue to feel my lips between my teeth but not when I'm actually playing. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3302 Location: Endwell NY USA
Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2022 5:21 am Post subject:
I have an off-topic question about tonguing - I would like to know if other players use a similar tongue position as mentioned below, and whether they would describe it in a similar manner.
My tongue position feels as if it touches the lower edge of my upper teeth, and perhaps both the upper and lower lips. Having my tongue touch the rear surface of my upper teeth or the upper teeth gum line seems very awkward.
Are different methods of tonguing simply due to physiology, or is there some technique and learned skill involved?
----------------------
brassmoose wrote:
... that my tongue gets crowded and can’t compress against my upper teeth/gumline. ...
and
Robert P wrote:
... I tongue against the top teeth, the tip of my tongue doesn't come anywhere near my lips ...
_________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
I found this you tube video useful. At 3mins 55secs he references Tongue on Lips (TOL) exercises from Balance Embouchure and then demonstrates.
Idea of TOL exercises is to do them as an "artificial exercise" and then forget all about them as you practise and play - let things "shake out of their own accord" as Abontrumpet would say.
I have an off-topic question about tonguing - I would like to know if other players use a similar tongue position as mentioned below, and whether they would describe it in a similar manner.
My tongue position feels as if it touches the lower edge of my upper teeth, and perhaps both the upper and lower lips. Having my tongue touch the rear surface of my upper teeth or the upper teeth gum line seems very awkward.]
I can say that I think the tip of my tongue touches the lower part of my front two teeth in general. However depending on the effect I want it may go higher near the gum for different touching methods… TK versus duh-ga.
I am not sure if you ever looked at Reinhardts classification on tounging, but it might be worth a read. For me I think its classification 2 while for you, you sound more like classification 3.
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Thanks Marc, looks like a lot of good info! _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9013 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2022 8:06 am Post subject:
Robert P wrote:
. . it's necessary. *Both* your lips need to be over the edge of the teeth and form a reed that you blow through.
That's an interesting comment, Robert, because when I checked it, I find that my lips are even with my teeth and do not protrude into the mouthpiece. In fact, I think you could even close your teeth down and still produce a small aperture. Comments? _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
. . it's necessary. *Both* your lips need to be over the edge of the teeth and form a reed that you blow through.
That's an interesting comment, Robert, because when I checked it, I find that my lips are even with my teeth and do not protrude into the mouthpiece. In fact, I think you could even close your teeth down and still produce a small aperture. Comments?
We need to sort out some concepts. Your lips being past the edge of your open teeth is a different issue than how much they protrude into the mp. I'm not sure what your concept of "protrude into the mouthpiece is" but they're going to bulge past the plane of the rim of the mouthpiece as they do in the video.
Think about your notion that your lips are "even" with the edge of your teeth. Would you agree that the lips by necessity have to be together to play - with only a very small space for the aperture when playing as seen in the video?
So you've got your lips together and your teeth apart to accommodate playing which means your lips are past the edge of the teeth - not a huge amount but they *are* past the edges of the teeth. You might be able to produce a sound with your teeth clamped shut but you don't play that way. You'll also find that as you play a given pitch louder your teeth open more.
_________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9013 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2022 8:53 am Post subject:
Robert P wrote:
We need to sort out some concepts. Your lips being past the edge of your open teeth is a different issue than how much they protrude into the mp. I'm not sure what your concept of "protrude into the mouthpiece is" but they're going to bulge past the plane of the rim of the mouthpiece as they do in the video.
Think about your notion that your lips are "even" with the edge of your teeth. Would you agree that the lips by necessity have to be together to play - with only a very small space for the aperture when playing as seen in the video?
So you've got your lips together and your teeth apart to accommodate playing which means your lips are past the edge of the teeth - not a huge amount but they *are* past the edges of the teeth. You might be able to produce a sound with your teeth clamped shut but you don't play that way. You'll also find that as you play a given pitch louder your teeth open more.
I think we might be at cross purposes with the phrase "Protruding lips". I think you mean lips protruding away from the teeth (kiss/pucker) and I was interpreting it to mean lips protruding into the mouth(roll-in).
(Protruding lips and Rolled-in lips are just terms to show contrast.) _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
We need to sort out some concepts. Your lips being past the edge of your open teeth is a different issue than how much they protrude into the mp. I'm not sure what your concept of "protrude into the mouthpiece is" but they're going to bulge past the plane of the rim of the mouthpiece as they do in the video.
Think about your notion that your lips are "even" with the edge of your teeth. Would you agree that the lips by necessity have to be together to play - with only a very small space for the aperture when playing as seen in the video?
So you've got your lips together and your teeth apart to accommodate playing which means your lips are past the edge of the teeth - not a huge amount but they *are* past the edges of the teeth. You might be able to produce a sound with your teeth clamped shut but you don't play that way. You'll also find that as you play a given pitch louder your teeth open more.
I think we might be at cross purposes with the phrase "Protruding lips". I think you mean lips protruding away from the teeth (kiss/pucker) and I was interpreting it to mean lips protruding into the mouth(roll-in).
(Protruding lips and Rolled-in lips are just terms to show contrast.)
I was interpreting it to mean lips protruding into the mouth
I was going by what your originally said - which was lips protruding into the mouthpiece, not mouth.
This idea of lips "puckering into the mouthpiece" is one I think people have a misguided notion of. The portion of the lips that actually gets the buzzing done is trapped against the teeth and need to be at a particular level of tension. You're not going to be able to do a lot of "puckering" under playing conditions.
Can you clarify what you originally meant by lips being "even with the teeth"? I think I've already pretty well defined what I mean but to look at it another way - if you were to look from behind the teeth, when the teeth are open in a playing position you would see the line where the lips meet in the space between the teeth. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
I had a longstanding issue of too much lower lip over my bottom teeth .. not sure it is exactly your issue but it could be similar. My teacher gave me many exercises which helped but the one that finally sealed the deal was this one.
1. Free buzz a low Bb (of course you first need to learn to free buzz well, it takes a few months if you can't do it yet).
2. While buzzing (!!) put the trumpet with mouthpiece on lips and aim to blow a middle staff G. It will take some practice to get it right.
3. Continue to play a scale up from there.
4. .. Do the Bb - G thing nearly every time you set your mouthpiece to play for the next month.
You may need to open your embouchure a bit after placing it, YMMV.
The thing about this is the free buzz lets you set your embouchure in the best spot to make the buzz, without the mouthpiece messing things up. You want a good teacher to take you through this kind of thing, it is very difficult on your own. _________________ Thane Standard Large Bb / Monette Unity B6-7M mpc
Lots of vintage trumpets and mouthpieces
Joined: 23 Apr 2022 Posts: 79 Location: Seattle, WA
Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2022 1:32 pm Post subject:
Thank you to all who have posted. Too many great responses to reply individually. I have reached out to several potential teachers & hope for some guidance soon.
To be clear, I guess the word is intrusion? rather than protrusion. The bottom lip is over the bottom teeth like I was biting it. When my embouchure is failing, I can feel my top teeth touching the bottom lip. However, all is not lost. This is only an issue above high F (F above high C). Yesterday, I played a two hour rehearsal (with a break) with my best endurance yet. Lots of clean clear high E's without getting tired or sore. I could have easily done a 3rd hour. However, rather than being able to place my tongue towards my front teeth for compression, I figured out that I can lightly connect it to my bottom lip and create enough compression. Not what I want long term, but it makes things happen.
Tonguing is no problem & I don't need to tongue on the lip. I've tried & it's definitely not my thing. I work best when I can tongue on my top teeth at the gum line.
I feel as though everything else is there. I have good, relaxed air flow & a strong embouchure with good habits. I'm very pleased with my tone--it's full and solid. It's just this road bump / space hog of a bottom lip that is preventing my high F# and higher. Honestly, high G or A is really all I need to level up, FWIW. A double C wouldn't hurt tho
The problem is when I need more compression. The bottom lip takes up too much real estate to get my tongue where it belongs (forward) and the air stops.
I appreciate the above advice about Bb-G free buzzing. When I find a teacher, I will definitely bring this up with them. Pretty cool!
I do think my chin is coming too far up (TOO much Balanced Embouchure, perhaps??) and bringing it down a bit will help. This is definitely a new development. Perhaps continuing to work the George Graham range exercises will help the lip retreat. They seem to be building muscle in a really nice way. I also pair them with some Vizzutti exercises.
Oh, and yes, that was speech to text. SmartPhones are not always convenient or accurate. Today...chromebook to the rescue.
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