Type I’s

Gonya · Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2022 7:00 pm Post subject: Type I’s

Are there any stories of type I players? I heard that Lin Biviano was a type I and could move the mouthpiece off to the side when he got tired.
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Doug Elliott · Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2022 10:20 am Post subject:

Biviano was clearly a IIIB. Doc said he always wanted to be a IIIA "like Bill Chase" but he wasn't.

I think Kenny Smukal could have been considered a Type I, but there's really no point to classifying anybody that type - functionally it's either IIIA or IV.

JoshMizruchi · Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2022 12:41 pm Post subject:

I took five or six lessons with Lin many years ago. I was always under the impression he was a IIIA, and he is listed as a famous IIIA.

However, talking with Chris L., also a big Lin Biviano fan like I am, Chris said that he thinks Lin started off as a IIIA and eventually became a IIIB.

I heard that Lin had a lot of dental work done over the years and that may have created a switch of some kind. I never asked Lin about his teeth.

Chris also told me if I’m remembering correctly that something similar happened with Maynard; that he started off as I think a IIIA, and his placement changed after that dental work he had done in the early 60s after that drunk guy hit his horn while he was playing. I can’t totally remember and don’t know for sure.

Anyway this is the first I ever heard of Lin being a type I. Also, he could still hit Triple C’s so if he was a IIIB he was one of the few who could do that. My friend John Replogle said Lin played a triple C in a lesson for him one time no problem. The highest Lin ever played for me was a Double D. He took the horn out of his case, totally cold, and nailed one. Then he said, “Don’t ever do that.” Ha.
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Gonya · Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2022 1:19 pm Post subject:

I've heard that Bill Chase was a IIIB and that Maynard began as a IIIB, but had dental work done and bounced back and fourth between being a IIIB and a IIIA for the rest of his life. I heard that Lin was a type I from this interview with Glenn Libman.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJ99GK0MfuI
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JoshMizruchi · Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2022 1:39 pm Post subject:

bg · Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2022 3:10 pm Post subject:

I am a type Ia.
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BeboppinFool · Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2022 6:14 pm Post subject:

I watched that Glenn Libman interview a few months back and was struck by one or two types he didn't get right. At the moment I only remember that he said Roger Ingram was a IV, but Roger did an endorsement of my Focal Point book and states that he is a IIIA. I know that because he gave me permission to use his endorsement in the front matter of my book.
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Wilktone · Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2022 6:21 am Post subject:

bg · Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2022 6:55 am Post subject:

Yes, I struggled with placement for much of my playing life.

I was constantly being advised to place higher, by people who did not understand embouchure function. They meant well, and were sincere in their convictions that their advice would be helpful. They were simply wrong.

If I start to have some bad chop days now, it usually ends up being due to my placement beginning to creep higher.

My bite is dead even, at rest and while playing. Here's a question that I have for you guys. My track is far more horizontal than vertical. When it's working most smoothly, it appears to be straight right-to-left. I pivot upward to ascend above the limit of my track. Could this horizontal track be a unique function of the type I player?
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Wilktone · Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2022 7:05 am Post subject:

Brad, the track of the player's pivot is personal and how horizontal it goes doesn't appear to be related to a musician being a Type I or any other type. As a IV myself, (or IVA, depending on whether you feel that it's worth differentiating between those types) I also have a great deal of horizontal tracking.

bg · Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2022 7:39 am Post subject:

I'm tracking right to left, and pulling my lips slightly downward to ascend to near E above Double C. At this point, I employ a pivot (as Reinhardt says, as a "trump card") very subtly shifting the weight to my upper teeth and continuing the track motion and the downward lip pull.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/q2KgpnQhxiE
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Wilktone · Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2022 9:57 am Post subject:

Thanks for the explanation and demonstration, Brad. My initial though was that you were saying that you played upstream, but with a Type 1 pivot (pushing generally up to ascend). I've never seen that situation and it would be unusual.

Dave
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bg · Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2022 10:03 am Post subject:

Hi Dave,

I believe that Reinhardt made a distinction between the "track" and the "pivot'.

My interpretation is that these are two separate phenomena, and I've tried to show how I've interpreted and applied what he described.
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Wilktone · Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2022 11:35 am Post subject:

This is partly why I don't like to use the term "pivot." It's too easily confused if it's not defined for everyone.

bg · Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2022 10:55 am Post subject:

Hi Dave,

Thank you for the help, and clarification.

I was struck by the advice given in the Encyclopedia, on page A-46, under the category "Pivot System Musts."

"Strive to keep more weight (mouthpiece pressure) on the lower lip than on the upper and travel as far into the high register as possible in this manner; however, it must be comprehended that this maneuver does not give you permission to recede the jaw while so doing. Use any additional upper lip weight only as a "trump card" for the last few notes in the extreme upper register and even avoid its usage at this point, if possible."

Since I do use that "extreme" register on rare occasions, I found that this advice made it more reliable for me. The way I've interpreted this is nearly literal; I don't consciously shift weight until I feel that I am at what I have called the END of my normal track. At this point, the slight shift seems to keep the air and sound moving and allows me to continue beyond that point.

I often touch upon this in my daily routine, early on. It works in the form of an extension to the track routine for me.
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Wilktone · Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2022 7:14 am Post subject:

Thanks for the additional info, Brad. It's very interesting stuff.

bg · Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2022 8:08 am Post subject:

Agreed.

I'm absolutely striving to not tilt the bell, at all; even when I shift weight above my "usable range." The weight shifting that I'm doing is very minimal.
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chase1973 · Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2023 4:08 pm Post subject:

PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2022 10:20 am Post subject: Reply with quote
Biviano was clearly a IIIB. Doc said he always wanted to be a IIIA "like Bill Chase" but he wasn't.

Sorry Doug, Bill was a Blood N Guts 3B...no doubt...you can tell by the horn angle, sound and physical exertion with which he played...Doc typed some cats incorrectly from time to time and this was DEFINITELY the case, I never knew Chase to take a lesson from Doc tho...Bill was a IIIB...Chris LaBarbera & Dave Sheetz also said so...just watch the Faces video...no doubt. Pulls down to ascend. He did have that cupids bow top lip which, in some images, makes it look like his MPC placement is high but I have other images close up that would confirm I'm correct