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High note common concepts?


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Notlem
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2022 3:00 pm    Post subject: High note common concepts? Reply with quote

Hi everyone.

As part of my comeback, I am still working on finding my range again. I find it inconsistent. Sometimes it loud, sometimes its not, sometimes its just not there.

This has had me take a deep look into my past and the various methods I have tried to implore over the years.

What I notice upon reflection are the similarities in the methods from a technical point of view, while at the same time my current belief it that all the methods are giving us a different solution to solve the most common concept that they all share.

I have no idea if I am on the right path or totally out in left field. I also realize that I cannot put all my thoughts to paper to share them with you and get any kind of real feedback from the community.
Therefore I did a video which can only be seen by this link:

https://youtu.be/JiP47gehaVw

[07/20/2022 - Interesting how much this thread has made me rethink methods and former video, I am now under the belief that there are two primary methods for lip manipulation and redid the entire video based on that - https://youtu.be/HR_JqHSE9mU ]

Let me know if I am in the ballpark, think I totally misunderstood a concept or have suggestions for improvement as I am working to progress my range.

Please remember, we are a trumpet community and are here to help one another.

If you have qeuestions on certain sections and concepts I am calling out, I will be happy to do so on private message or via this forum. I purposely did not call out which high note methods I referred to in the video, I assume those that use those particular methods would recognize them quickly and did not want to start any kind of flame war.

Happy 4th of July and thanks in advance for any advice!

-Marc Melton

btw - Notlem Cram is my name spelled backwards...


Last edited by Notlem on Wed Jul 20, 2022 3:29 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Robert P
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2022 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I kind of skimmed your video. Are you asking for input as to how to improve your range?

Based on your "here's what my range is" demo your useable range is up to about a D, it starts to fall apart at E, the F is too fuzzy to be useful and it gets nothing but worse the higher you go. You need to jettison that whole notion of playing higher, it's useless. As a further observation granted the recording situation isn't ideal but the range up to the D doesn't sound as full and supported as it could - the high C is there but it's kind of small and pinched, my seat of the pants is that your issues are probably related.

You say you used to have more range - having never heard what you sounded like I have to take your word for it but assuming you could play with good sound higher than what you're demonstrating and you don't know *why* you can't now, you never understood what you were doing in the first place. It's something you're doing differently - the only variable is you.

The macro "Captain Obvious" advice is you need to change what you're doing - the balance of how you're using the embouchure muscles, the mouth cavity, the tongue, teeth opening, angle of the horn, mp pressure, air.

Work up to the top of where you can play solidly and try to push a little farther. Don't be satisfied with bad sound. Become really tuned in to what's going on with all the playing mechanisms. The change you need to make is likely going to be subtle but important. Even how you're placing the mouthpiece might need to change.
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Destructo
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2022 12:43 am    Post subject: Re: High note common concepts? Reply with quote

Not a monster lead player by any means, but have some suggestions that might be helpful.

Other than looking at a smaller diameter/cup volume, a few things you might find worth experimenting with:

1. A slightly modified setting before you place the mouthpiece. You're using tongue arch and it's working pretty much perfectly to high D. That's where my tongue arch will take me to aswell if I set on totally relaxed chops like you did for the low C. But after that, you'll end up having to adjust some other variables to continue up (unless you're playing a particularly small/shallow mouthpiece which will give you a boost), and the sound will get thin as you ascend from there unless you really blow your brains out.

The way I found that solved this was:
At the end of your inhalation, rather than relaxing and blowing, firm the corners of your mouth (only like 20-30% of maxium firmness of those muscles). If you just think of firming the corners a little bit at the end of your breath, they will want to move to where they need to be when playing and this should add both a littlestatic tension and a little pucker. (Note - the lips should be touching inside the mouthpiece at the end of the breath)

We're talking tiny amounts, but those elements need to be there on the Low C so that they are ready to support everything as you climb higher.
This alone might make the D upwards more secure and add some volume.

2. From there, you can experiment with: (1) adding a little roll in or (2) a little extra pursing of the lips or (3) a little extra closeness of the lips (4) a combination.

I'd experiment with these by starting from 3rd space C and ascending from there.

3. From the C upwards, focus on the tongue coming forward in the mouth towards how you would say "ssss". At a certain point, you might try to add in addition to the "sss" a little rise of the very tip of the tongue. Kind of like you're saying "sss" and "thhh" at the same time.

--

Which ever of those tweaks helps as you get above high C, you will - in my opinion & personal experience - need to make sure they are "active" regardless of how low you go. Just like with the corners, your default it won't be at maximum capacity, it just have to be >0. Because if they aren't slightly active when you start playing, by the time you need them, you've already compensated by adjusting some other variable, and so trying to activate your corners or add some roll at a specific point will throw the balance out and seem like it doesn't help.

Personally, I find that feeling 20-30% active on a 3rd space C is a good default. You're still relaxed, and you can play all day like that. But much less than that and I will run short somewhere before the Double C and end up blowing and pressing to compensate.

The thing I realised a while ago is that everything is won or lost with the trumpet before we even start to blow! Everything that happens before the exhale determines how likely we are to be successful with what we're about to play.

I also found that learning to 'centre' those notes on the mouthpiece (using a berp) is really informative because it feels much more obvious when you're getting out of balance. For some reason, I can dial in the tongue placement better on the mouthpiece, then when I add the trumpet it's easier.

Once the air is going, what I "feel"happening is tongue arch and air changing and the pitch changing with it. Everything else just comes along for the ride. The tongue may or may not be the cause of the pitch change, but that's certainly how it feels to me.

I also find that buzzing along to lead trumpet stuff with just the mouthpiece (in a berp attached to the horn) without music helps me get my conscious brain out of the way as I'm not seeing a double A and going "EEEK!", you just hear it, buzz it and get out of your own way some.
But that might be a "me problem"...

Anyway, hope that gives you some things to experiment with. If any of it turns out to be helpful, please let me know!
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Notlem
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2022 2:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robert P wrote:
I kind of skimmed your video. Are you asking for input as to how to improve your range? .


Hi Robert,

Yeah, the video is basically a blog about me having issues this round and my understanding of the mechanics, methods and myths from my perspective. What I think is working and not.

One thing I left out is that it seems like when I really try to push a ton of compression, it just totally backs up. It does not feel like the lips stop vibration, but that the back pressure builds so high that nothing is moving. As if someone put a wisper mute in the horn when I try to get any serious air in there. I have a couple of mouthpieces that are opened up that help a little, but does not resolve, so I know it’s an internal issue.

It’s weird for me, I don’t remember this kind of issue in the past. I know a famous player once said that todays squeaks are tomorrows notes, but you would think some volume would show up by now.

Since I seem to be mixing methods, it seems like I need to hit the woodshed and really see what is going on to push though this. This round it has not seems to be any kind of natural progression and feels rather forced.

Your suggestion that something in the equation is out of balance and something in the setup is not correct is exactly true and I am at fault.

I think Destructo has some great feedback for me on where to start. If I’m am really going to tackle this, I need to look at it at a smaller incremental approach, and learn where the note actually lands and what the bell is going on with my tongue. I think his different suggestion on how to announce the tongue position is worth exploring. I know that opera singers use vowels to shape their tongue and cavity to allow their falsettos. I have to wonder if the back tounge position is cutting off my air, when pushing it or if it is just assisting in some way. I was never a fan of buzzing on a mouthpiece, but maybe this round, if it give it a whirl, it may help my development. Strangely, my range seems to be the same on just playing with a wedding ring as it is on a mouthpiece.

Thus far I have tried arpeggios, flexibility studies, and good old double and triple octave jumps to learn the pitch locations, but they are all weak and sometimes I still don't lock on the pitch well, which is apparent in the video.

Of course if I do a reset, my high f is pretty good, but a double embrochure is not my goal, and the lower notes don’t sound flattering in that position. So to me that seems to be a non starter. My end goal is to connect my entire range and be in control of its dynamics. What note that ends on? who knows...

Thanks for the advice thus far, I do not plan to keep that video live for long (will move to private view), as it’s a blog and for me and a diagnostic tool to document what I’m going through this round with my playing and my current understanding of concepts. It's kinda neat to go back and see how I use to think about something. I wish I had kept record long ago and know I get to see my progress.

I really do feel video is the best way to help each other, we can get a lot more across in this method and this is a community I trust.

If anyone know how to setup a video on YouTube where I just need to give the herald acces via a password or something without it being public, that would probably be best. I’ll try to look into that today.

-marc


Last edited by Notlem on Tue Jul 05, 2022 3:28 am; edited 3 times in total
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Notlem
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2022 2:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Notlem wrote:
If anyone know how to setup a video on YouTube where I just need to give the herald acces via a password or something without it being public, that would probably be best. I’ll try to look into that today.

-marc


Yeah! Well the private setting makes no sense, but there was a setting that you have to give someone the direct link to the video to see and it’s not in public view, so now only our community here can see it.

Perfect setting for diagnosis!

-marc
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2022 5:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

An item that I don't understand (and which I think many others also don't understand) is what portion of the lips actually 'controls' the pitch, and what portions are just 'moving along' with the air flow. Using a mouthpiece visualizer or free buzzing only allows us to see the most external lip movements, and that might give a false impression of what are the actual controls.

The various high note methods that you discuss are all attempts to discover and adjust the 'control portions' that the proponents of the method have found to work for them.

Many people get themselves into trouble by thinking that going higher ALWAYS means continually getting tighter and smaller - that can lead to preventing vibration and air flow. The 'smallness' is probably required to allow the fast movement of the lip tissue, but the 'tightness' needs to be low enough to permit movement and air flow.

It's a complicated coordination of many factors, and not the simple 'hose nozzle' illustration of 'move it this way for slow, and this way for fast'.
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2022 5:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are a few technical concepts that you are tripping over.

These are common among players and teachers.

The term "fast" vibrations. Vibrational or pulsation frequency have NOTHING to do with "speed". Frequency is cycles per time. Greater frequency is "higher" pitch, lesser frequency is relatively "lower" pitch.

Also, the instrument is not an "amplifier", it is a resonator. Exploiting the resonance is a key to creating tone on the FULL instrument. Playing the full instrument efficiently takes far less embouchure and exhalation effort than "buzzing".



Quote:
One thing I left out is that it seems like when I really try to push a ton of compression, it just totally backs up.


This feel is due to the aperture becoming the dominant (and ever-increasing) resistance as one ascends. A MAJOR reason for the feel is that one is not effectively creating tone in the instrument. The concept of air pressure, resistance balance, and sound power output is not understood by players.

For example, if you were using increasing air pressure by greater exhalation effort (what you call: "to push a ton of compression") and you were experiencing some higher resistance to flow ( what you experience as "but that the back pressure builds so high that nothing is moving") but at the same time getting a HUGE sound. You likely would not be complaining over it.

Forget the concept of "free blowing". It doesn't exist when playing. But you CAN improve your efficiency so that you get more, not less, sound output for your air pressure efforts.
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Notlem
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2022 7:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jay,

my understanding is that the lip does not vibrate on it's own, the air flying across it has to do that portion, but it has to be the correction tension to assist with that.

Looking at your reply, I get a feeling that the only thing I am either remembering from some of these techniques is, as you put it, to be targeting a single control portion of the equation. So that makes me think that either im too compressed and need to keep a more open aperture, which may be leading to me choking off, or I am missing another control factor I greatly have overlooked, that is not coming naturally at this point.

Kalijah,

thanks for the lesson on the concepts I don't understand well. That puts some perspective into it. It seems when I concentrate on my sound, those guitars behind me join in, when I don't, they just sit there, so resonace is the key to sounding good and maximizing what I am getting from the end of the bell.

I wish I understood the full balance of air pressure, resistance balance and sound output more, but get the just of what you are describing to me and will keep it in my thoughts as I attempt to progress.

As always, thanks for the comments and recommendations!

-marc
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Richard III
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2022 8:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought you sounded fine on the recording. Very relaxed. What does the same three octave run sound like tongued? And what happens when you try and produce more volume?
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Notlem
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2022 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Richard III wrote:
I thought you sounded fine on the recording. Very relaxed. What does the same three octave run sound like tongued? And what happens when you try and produce more volume?


Tonguing makes it harder for me to find the notes above high C. I don't think the videos and the recording equipment I am using let you really convey the volume I am playing at.

If I try to play at full massive volume, I start choking up, like I can't push the air though, based on others suggestions, I have some things I can try to open that back up or get more efficient in my use of air.

As requested, this is how much more it gets messed up from me when trying to separate all the notes. you can see above high C its like playing pin the tail on the donkey, and that donkey is me!

https://youtu.be/cStkF9y7iko

Note sure of this additional tad bit of info will give you any additional insight, but I appreciate you looking and taking a stab at it. Any suggestion would be appreciated.

Thanks Richard!

-marc
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Richard III
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2022 11:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The burst of air that occurs when tonguing adds extra pressure against the muscles trying to keep the lips together. So that's just a question of strength. Also, louder means pushing more air. Same thing again. As you approach strength limits, its also harder to stay relaxed. I think it is just a matter of time and work until you get there.

I remember years ago when trying to get into shape for British Brass Banding using a Wick 4 no letter mouthpiece. I just kept doing the double and triple tongue stuff in the back of Arban. It wasn't long before my range shot up. That open and deep mouthpiece only allows good technique.

I'm now working on an ancient cornet with an even more ancient mouthpiece. The mouthpiece is very small in diameter but also deep. It really keeps you honest with technique and I can already see a difference. Relaxation and focus is the key as the muscles get stronger.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2022 11:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Notlem wrote:
...
https://youtu.be/cStkF9y7iko ...

--------------------------
From the video I get the impression that starting at about A above the staff you use increasingly higher amounts of up/down lip compression across the width of the mouthpiece cup, and also increasing amounts of rim pressure on the upper lip.

You can try this to determine whether it gives a different 'feel' to how adjustments are made.
1) At some point try to get the lip aperture feeling of establishing a smaller round aperture - with tension AROUND the aperture, and not so much across the aperture. Similar to a type of sphincter.
2) At the same time, use more lower lip rim pressure - not necessarily jaw movement - and ALLOW the upper lip rim pressure to lessen, hopefully that will enable the aperture to flex more easily.
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Robert P
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2022 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Notlem wrote:
Robert P wrote:
I kind of skimmed your video. Are you asking for input as to how to improve your range? .


Hi Robert,

Yeah, the video is basically a blog about me having issues this round and my understanding of the mechanics, methods and myths from my perspective. What I think is working and not.

...

Since I seem to be mixing methods, it seems like I need to hit the woodshed and really see what is going on to push though this. This round it has not seems to be any kind of natural progression and feels rather forced.

Your suggestion that something in the equation is out of balance and something in the setup is not correct is exactly true and I am at fault.

Try this.

Starting at low F# play a long-ish tone and build the volume. Not a Claude Gordon-style long tone until you turn purple and pass out in convulsions but long enough to establish a full, resonant sound and get the *feel* of what's going on with your chops, your mouth cavity, teeth opening, everything as you go through various volumes on that pitch.

Repeat on the low G, keeping going up a half step, etc. as high as you can with a good sound. On each note *that's* what your setup has to be and what it should feel like to play that given note with a good sound.

As a related exercise to help you get tuned in to what has to happen for a good sound is to play a given note with a good sound and then alter things away from that. Reduce the pressure until the sound starts to fall apart, then re-increase the pressure until the sound is good again and make note of what it feels like. Try closing up the teeth, closing up the mouth cavity, reduce the air pressure, raise the horn up until the sound cuts off - whatever you can think of to deviate away from the setup for good sound and then go back to it and be really aware of the changes occurring and where you have to be for a solid sound - I think you're going to find you're aiming at a very small target. No matter what "method" you use, you still have to end up at that same place.
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brassmoose
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2022 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have been struggling with some of the same things and have been on a search for better playing over the past 6 months. I found the introduction in Allen Vizzutti's "High Notes" incredibly helpful (available on his website). I realized that I have never (in 30 years) played EFFICIENTLY. Seems obvious, but not. As an overblower, I figured out how to back off, use less air & pressure, and (most of all) I figured out better (proper?) use of my tongue to create compression. As a result, my tongue is now doing most of the work & my improvement has really ramped up nicely.

I documented much of my learnings (at length) here:
https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=159996&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=20

I now have a reliable high E for 2-3 45 minute sets. My high F is probably there, too. F# and above I can do in scales, but not reliably n a rehearsal. I have now squeaked out several double high Cs during my practice. How, I don't know. But as Adam Rappa says, "Today's squeak is tomorrow's note."

I am also finding George Graham's range exercise incredibly helpful. I pair this with Allen Vizzutti's range exercises & the Colin book "Corners". My endurance, efficiency, and range are really improving (despite the F# wall & possible embouchure issue). If you want the George Graham exercise, PM me.

Best of Luck!
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2022 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I figured out better (proper?) use of my tongue to create compression.


There is nothing wrong with allowing the tongue to move as an ancillary action of embouchure manipulation. It is a sort of "barometer" of how much roll-out effort you are doing as part of your lip-muscular action. The tongue does not create air compression.
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brassmoose
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2022 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kalijah wrote:
Quote:
I figured out better (proper?) use of my tongue to create compression.


There is nothing wrong with allowing the tongue to move as an ancillary action of embouchure manipulation. It is a sort of "barometer" of how much roll-out effort you are doing as part of your lip-muscular action. The tongue does not create air compression.


I disagree wholeheartedly, based on both personal experience and numerous readings. I leave it to the original poster to consider, or not consider, my own thoughts and follow their own path. If my experience proves me wrong, I will be delighted to post my findings (and retraction here) since it will mean I have figured out my embouchure and a reliable High A to double C.

I've read the Mohan/kalijah debates here on TH, and I doubt I will change your mind. So I will leave this post as my only rebuttal.

If you haven't read the Vizzutti High Notes book, I highly recommend it. If you read it & still disagree with me, then I don't know what else to say other than I wish you the best in your creative endeavors and happiness. If you do agree with it, I would love to understand how you bridge the gap between your post & Allen's approach. Cheers!!
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Robert P
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2022 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

brassmoose wrote:

If you haven't read the Vizzutti High Notes book, I highly recommend it.

I just ordered it - I'm curious to see what Allen has to say.
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Destructo
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2022 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Marc,

What you said about the feeling of the air getting blocked is a familiar one to me as well.

I think that what is usually happening is that the mouthpiece pressure is causing one or the other lip to be pushed into the edge of the opposite teeth (top teeth, lower lip; lower teeth, top lip).

For example, if I just blow air like I'm blowing a low C and press my finger into the lower lip, it causes that lower lip to push into the edges of the top teeth and the air shuts off. That feels the same as what is happening when that upper resgister is being a pain.

Try it and see if it happens to you. If it does, I reckon that's the problem. How you solve it is another matter. You might need to learn to play with your teeth wider apart. Or roll your lower lip in (in front of your teeth, not between them) to keep it out of the way. Or to develop a strong pucker to push back against the mouthpiece to keep the path of the air from getting blocked. Or hold that lip down with the muscles infront of the lower teeth. Or the

This is why there are so many different trumpet methods, because there are different ways to solve something.

As for mouthpiece buzzing, I don't think it does much of help in the lower register, but as you get to High C and above, it starts to feel much more like what is happening on the trumpet.

On the mouthpiece, there is a really sticking point for me at the high D I had to learn to play through. Going above that it feels like there is a real break. On the trumpet, you can use mouthpiece pressure etc and those notes will come out, but on the mouthpiece it feels much more like it either works or it doesn't. If I'm off, it goes from D = easy, to trying to slot an E and it feels like double the effort.
But when I've "got it" then there difference is just a matter of a slight adjustment and not more effort. Co-ordination rather than force.

In my own experience, squeaks only turn into notes if the squeak is pretty focused and relatively easy. If it's a thin airy note and you're working really hard for it, then it doesn't develop into anything. At least, that was my experience!
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2022 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Arch your tongue if it helps. I do the same. But it absolutely DOES NOT compress the air. When playing a tone, the highest air pressure in the body at any instant is in the lungs, not downstream of the tongue or in the oral space.

Air ALWAYS flows from higher to lower pressure. If the air in the oral space was "compressed" then the air would not only cease to flow, it would flow back into the lungs. Of course, that doesn't happen.

The air in the oral space is, at best, the same pressure or slightly less than the pressure of the air in the lungs.

There is no air pressure in the oral space that is not 100 percent created by the exhalation effort when playing from lung air pressure. The arch DOES NOT and CAN NOT add additional pressure to the air in the oral space.

Dropping your fictional explanation of how you think the arch works will not keep it from working. You'll be just fine. Trust me.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2022 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Even though the air comes from the lungs, when you raise your tongue that makes the oral cavity smaller. The air has a smaller space to get past. If the rate of expulsion of the air is the same, (requiring more air pressure), wouldn't the air in that smaller oral cavity become more compressed?
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