Downstream embouchure with low placement?

Doug Elliott · Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2022 9:49 am Post subject:

I don't think it's specifically mentioned in the Encyclopedia, and I don't remember him actually mentioning it, but Reinhardt relied on seeing the aperture through one of his clear plexiglass mouthpieces so the actual placement and aperture would be more obvious than what it looks like on the outside.

JayKosta · Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2022 10:26 am Post subject:

The real question about the OP's situation is not merely 'what type is he', but also 'are there Reinhardt recommendations for any of the types that he should try to incorporate in his embouchure technique'.

Or in other words, how can knowing his type help him.
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bach_again · Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2022 10:50 am Post subject:

BeboppinFool · Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2022 3:49 am Post subject:

bach_again · Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2022 5:11 am Post subject:

Trumpetingbynurture · Heavyweight Member Joined: 18 Nov 2015 Posts: 898

JayKosta · Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2022 5:08 am Post subject:

BeboppinFool · Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2022 5:24 am Post subject:

JoshMizruchi · Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2022 1:31 pm Post subject:

There's slight possibility you could be a IVA, or a IIIB that slipped too far. But without seeing you play, this could be totally inaccurate. However, if you are saying that you relate to the IV "feeling", that you're getting a sense you are a IV from the description, that also tells me there's a strong possibility you could be a IV.

If you are a IV, from one IV to another, here's a few tips to get the max out of your results.

-IV's prefer shorter playing periods but need shorter rests than downstream players, so keep that in mind. Don't feel you have to keep the mouthpiece on your face forever, but as you get more efficient, you might darn near be able to.

-Warming up is going to be a very individual thing for you. Some IV's warm up quickly, others need to take more time. Try to see where you're at and adjust accordingly. I recommend giving Warm Up 57 a shot if you haven't yet.

-Don't get too obsessed with high notes. A lot of upstream players can get into this trap because the high register comes somewhat easily, but it can cause you a lot of problems, both physically and musically, if you let it. Be sure to make sure you play with a good sound and try to keep your intonation under control, and try to as Doc said, "master the feeling of relaxation."

Like warming up, lip buzzing is something IV's need to approach different than downstreamers. You may need to do it every day, every other day, or even very little or not at all. Experiment and see what works for you.

Hope this helps!

Josh
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Gonya · Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2022 3:31 pm Post subject:

I made this post when I was just beginning to learn about Reinhardt and I initially thought that I was a IV just because of the low placement on the outside. After learning more, I still am not super knowledge on a lot of things, but I am pretty much certain that I am a IIIB. With my anatomy, there's just no way that I can be upstream. I tried playing upstream and it just doesn't work well because of the way my lips are shaped. I have always had the "big sound" that's typical of a IIIB and can play extremely loud if I want, but high range has always been something that I really have to spend a lot of time practicing to maintain. The biggest tendency of a IV that I have is I can occasionally get a double buzz when I'm extremely fatigued, but this is rare and barely ever happens. Buzzing also feels beneficial and I can do buzzing and walking in drills comfortably.
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Mike Sailors · Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2022 6:07 pm Post subject:

IIIB all day.

Careful not to meathook that top lip. Practice good mouthcorner breaths and don’t play so loud. Also, I would highly suggest getting lessons from the gurus around here.
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JoshMizruchi · Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2022 6:28 pm Post subject:

Gonya · Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2022 7:07 pm Post subject:

My setup is pretty much a IIIB that seems like a IVA at first glance. The placement has to be somewhat low due to the teardrop lip, but there’s successful players who play in the red (even though I’m not super far in the red), so I think I’ll be fine. My range is up to an F, sometimes a G, and I have played double C’s before so I know it’s possible, but very difficult for me right now. I try to practice softly most of the time and not “fall in love with the sound.” Hopefully some potential lessons with Chris will guide me more.
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JoshMizruchi · Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2022 7:21 pm Post subject:

Looks like you’re on the right track for sure!

Regarding the IVA thing, I was just looking at pictures of Buddy Childers and he only actually looks like he’s using more lower lip in one of them, and it’s not clear what’s really going on. Sometimes I wonder if IVA is upstream or a low placed IIIB. Another topic for another day I suppose. We did discuss this once before.

Anyway, best wishes for your continued progress.

Josh
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Wilktone · Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2022 6:46 am Post subject:

Depending on how you want to think about it, the IVA is a definite embouchure pattern that is correct for some players. The debate on whether a IVA is a "real" type seems to be less about whether it's the correct way for some folks to play and whether or not it's functionally different from the straight type IV.

Bethmike · Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2022 1:12 pm Post subject:

Dave,

This topic is very interesting to me. Watching the trumpet video, it looks like me. The mpc placement, the thickness of lips / facial muscles, muscle movement while ascending. I have 2 questions:

1. What is the best way to determine my type?
2. What do i do differently once I know my type?

I am not a comeback player. I was a pretty good HS kid that quit the day I graduated. 40+ years later I guess I am a "trying it again" player. But after 2.5 years I can play above High C, and once warmed up, I can take the horn off my face, wait a minute, put it back on my face and play a High C as my first note (on good days

).

Mike
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Wilktone · Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2022 9:31 am Post subject:

Mike,

If you are able to post video of your chops up close playing over your entire range we can play "guess the embouchure type" for you. It's better to catch a lesson from someone who knows enough to type your embouchure correctly and also see what you can do to make it work as efficiently as possible for your anatomy. Understanding the basic embouchure types can provide a "road map" of sorts to help get a brass musician moving in the correct direction.

Doug Elliott, who posted earlier in this thread, teaches both in person and online. Doug studied with Reinhardt for about 10 years, I believe, and in addition to being very knowledgable is also very good at communicating and teaching how to play. I also have started teaching this stuff online via Zoom, as do a couple of other folks here. I'm not planning to visit the Chicago area (where I grew up) this summer, but if I ever get up that way we could maybe make an effort to meet up in person for a lesson. I'm not familiar with anyone offhand in the Chicago area who has a background with this, but I wouldn't be surprised if there were a couple brass teachers around that could help you.

Dave
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JoshMizruchi · Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2022 12:29 pm Post subject:

Thank you for that post, Dave. May I say, I discovered your website several years ago and was quite impressed. There is much useful information there.

I guess there are IVA players who truly do function that way. I have not, that I’m aware of, met them, and the only ones I know of are Buddy Childers and Kai Winding. I do have a colleague who I wonder is that type, however I try not to analyze my friends on gigs without them asking. Rich warned me a long time ago that we should not make our colleagues feel we are analyzing how they play without their asking. I think this is true, but I guess in this instance I couldn’t help but notice. However, I said nothing of it. There is some benefit to analyzing masters of the instrument in my opinion because we can most of the time look to them as an example of how to play correctly.

Anyway, I am a firm believer that if something works or feels right, stick with it. Whether it’s IVA, II, or III.
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Gonya · Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2022 11:39 am Post subject:

There are times when I have played up to double D even though my range is normally capped at a high G. I think may be switching to a IVA when that happens because the rest of my playing feels terrible afterwards.
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