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High note common concepts?


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Robert P
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2022 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kalijah wrote:

Air ALWAYS flows from higher to lower pressure. If the air in the oral space was "compressed" then the air would not only cease to flow, it would flow back into the lungs. Of course, that doesn't happen.

Compressed isn't the same as shut off but I'm pretty sure what they mean is the passage is narrowed and the pressure driving the air through has to be increased.
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Destructo
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2022 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kalijah - random questions for you that I don't know the answer to but would like to know.

Is it possible for the tongue to be doing something acoustically rather than in terms of air flow or causing the lips to change etc?
For example, possibly you can play a note with the tongue totally flat in the mouth, but possibly if the tongue is in a specific position, it makes it so that only a specific pitch wants to really resonate?

I know that some research found that sax players etc also tune their 'vocal tract' (which included raising the tongue) as the ascended. Perhaps the reed being inside the oral cavity makes a difference? I don't know, but perhaps you might, and I'd love to know the answer.
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2022 2:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
wouldn't the air in that smaller oral cavity become more compressed?
no
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2022 4:56 am    Post subject: tongue positioning, lips, and air flow Reply with quote

The main result of adjusting 'tongue position' while playing is that doing so changes the lips. There might be some very small inner mouth acoustic changes, but those changes have much less effect than the lip changes.

Even with maximum usable tongue positioning, there is little effect
edit: (from the tongue position itself)
on the actual air flow (and no air compression). If the tongue is moved into a position where it affects air flow, that would decrease the air flow at the lip aperture and reduce playing ability.

YES, many players successfully use and teach 'tongue arch' - it is a valid part of overall embouchure control. But the main issue is related to the muscular action that produces the change to tongue position - not the air flow over / around the tongue.
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Steve A
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2022 5:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
Even though the air comes from the lungs, when you raise your tongue that makes the oral cavity smaller. The air has a smaller space to get past. If the rate of expulsion of the air is the same, (requiring more air pressure), wouldn't the air in that smaller oral cavity become more compressed?


I'm not claiming to be an expert in the physics of playing, but as a total layperson, it seems to me that the aperture is still much, much smaller than the space between the tongue and the roof of the mouth, or the oral cavity in most conventional models of playing. (Not counting TCE.) If the aperture is the smallest point, then that would be the important part for compression, because everything before the aperture would be in an area of similar pressure.
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Notlem
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2022 5:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am amazed at the vast knowledge on this forum and thank everyone for their comments. A very adult conversation, where collectively, everyone seems to have brought up a piece of a missing solution I may need. I have to ponder all of this and see how it applies to me. Makes me wish we had all been around a big table discussing as a group.

I have not had time to try out all of these suggestions yet, but moving the mouthpiece angle does make a huge impact on how much resonance I get in my sound, when the angle goes higher, it is less open and the tone is not as good. This I will play with more.

On the last video, tounged run, I am playing very loud, you just can't tell because of my ribbon microphone setup. the suggestion that I don't have the strength to hold my embouchure together with the added air I do believe suggests more practice to build that muscle strength must be done.

Yes, my compression changes somewhere between A and D, when I play loud it happens closer to the A, and more softly It seems to change closer to the D, which I think points out to my weakness in my chops. Although I have never been a big mouthpiece buzzer, I never really thought about its uses in practice when going above high C. I think I may try that and take the horn out of the equation. Maybe then I can figure out where the block with big air is actually coming from, be it the lips, aperture collapsing, etc.

The tongue thing has always eluded me, I know my tongue does arch in the back when I ascend, when I first came back, I felt that the back of the tongue or the throat blocked off because I would cough after the air cut off, but that is no longer the issue. I could be I just was not use to opening up that much as it had not been done in years.

From what I can tell, around D, my front of my tongue goes down, either the tip is level with my lower teeth or it goes straight to my lower gums and is flat in the front. My only arch seems to be in the back.

I know that if I whistle, I can change the pitch with just changing the formation of the back of the tongue by arching it which appears to me to be the same thing I am doing while playing. I assume it changes the air shape, or shape inside of the mouth on how the air passes thought it, but have no clue what all it actually does.

I am also curious to know that vizzutti says about this, as I kinda remember trying TCE and either could never understand it or never liked my tounge in the middle of my teeth. Would be nice to know if his method differs.

My cartoon days growing up would tell me... the more you know... or knowing is half the battle.

Thanks for all the great advice! You are all fantastic and it is very appreciated!

-marc
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2022 6:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I know that if I whistle, I can change the pitch with just changing the formation of the back of the tongue by arching it which appears to me to be the same thing I am doing while playing. I assume it changes the air shape, or shape inside of the mouth on how the air passes thought it, but have no clue what all it actually does.


When whistling the oral space is the dominant resonance. It is a classic Helmholtz resonance. Notice that for even the lowest tones you can whistle with the largest cavity you can form, how high the frequency is compared to the trumpet range. An oral space with a high tongue has an EXTREMELY high resonance frequency (far above the tones we are playing with that oral posture) and an EXTREMELY weak resonance due to its unsymmetrical shape. These have very little influence on the pitch played and basically zero acoustical influence on high pitches.

Quote:
I am also curious to know that vizzutti says about this,


Just take his air "physics" with a grain of salt. He, like many players and teachers, just repeat the trumpet player's 'words de jour' of popular but misunderstood verbiage. Which of course demonstrates that one can have little technical understanding and still be a skilled and musical player.

SteveA wrote:
Quote:
If the aperture is the smallest point, then that would be the important part for compression, because everything before the aperture would be in an area of similar pressure.


The aperture plus the instrument's acoustic resistance are by far the dominant resistance. So, yes, the pressure is about the same in the lungs and oral space but with a TINY gradient of less pressure in the direction of flow.

Any DRASTIC or pronounced reduction in the flow path before the aperture will introduce significant losses to the air energy that reaches the lip aperture. That goes for a narrowed throat OR a narrowed oral space. Poiseuille's law always applies.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2022 7:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kalijah wrote:
Quote:
I am also curious to know that vizzutti says about this,


Just take his air "physics" with a grain of salt. He, like many players and teachers, just repeat the trumpet player's 'words de jour' of popular but misunderstood verbiage.


So I don't misunderstand. It's certainly possible for an excellent musician to rely on commonly accepted non-technical terms to still produce at a high level. And for acousticians with mediocre chops to know a lot about the scientific workings about playing. But are you saying that an exceptionally well-educated, versatile, virtuosic player like Allen Vizzutti, just follows the unwashed masses?
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2022 7:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
But are you saying that an exceptionally well-educated, versatile, virtuosic player like Allen Vizzutti, just follows the unwashed masses?


Most professional musician's education, even if exceptional, is quite narrow. There IS a popular language among trumpet players and brass players in general that is an attempt to explain, in good faith, what they can accomplish. It is mostly layman's misunderstood version of the physics or, at worst, just misunderstood and undefined babble. Usually heard, from trusted but equally confused individuals, and then repeated

If they are TRULY interested in the underlying physics then for goodness's sake venture to know what "compression", "power" and "air volume" etc etc etc ACTUALLY are.
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Steve A
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2022 8:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kalijah wrote:


SteveA wrote:
Quote:
If the aperture is the smallest point, then that would be the important part for compression, because everything before the aperture would be in an area of similar pressure.


The aperture plus the instrument's acoustic resistance are by far the dominant resistance. So, yes, the pressure is about the same in the lungs and oral space but with a TINY gradient of less pressure in the direction of flow.

Any DRASTIC or pronounced reduction in the flow path before the aperture will introduce significant losses to the air energy that reaches the lip aperture. That goes for a narrowed throat OR a narrowed oral space. Poiseuille's law always applies.


Thanks for the clarification!

kehaulani wrote:

So I don't misunderstand. It's certainly possible for an excellent musician to rely on commonly accepted non-technical terms to still produce at a high level. And for acousticians with mediocre chops to know a lot about the scientific workings about playing. But are you saying that an exceptionally well-educated, versatile, virtuosic player like Allen Vizzutti, just follows the unwashed masses?


I think Allen Vizzutti's thoughts about playing, like those of any extraordinary performer, are very useful to consider and have lots of value, but where their literal accuracy in physics terms is concerned, I have to wonder - of the most accomplished musicians you know, how many dedicated serious time to the study of something outside of music? Most of the most highly accomplished musicians I know are smart and interesting people, but also focused to an extremely high degree on music from a very young age, and have followed that path to the exclusion of other serious areas of study. Sure enough - Allen Vizzutti won the concerto competition and was awarded first chair in the World Youth Symphony Orchestra at Interlochen at age 16, went to Eastman on full scholarship, and was a standout star while he was there. (The first and only wind player ever to win their Artist's Diploma.)

He was already a special player from a very young age, and must have spent a lot of practice hours leading up to that. (Probably, to some extent, to the exclusion of other areas of study while in school.) I'm sure he's extremely well aware of how it feels to play the way he does, and how to do that consistently, but, given how much he has accomplished in music, and from how early an age, and how broad his musical work is (playing many styles, composing, writing books, etc.), I wouldn't find it surprising if he hasn't spent much time on anything other than music and his personal life.

I think star musicians have something in common with star athletes in this regard - they are generally identified early, and are encouraged and given opportunities to develop their particular skills to the highest possible degree, which is as it should be. But I don't think we'd have a hard time accepting that professional athletes know a lot about how their sports feel, but probably not much about the physics.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2022 8:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Word painting can be as effective as scientific specifics. It's the result that counts. One does not negate the other.
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2022 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Word painting can be as effective as scientific specifics.


Sure. Metaphor and visualization can sometimes encourage useful actions. But please do not expect to also be taken literally. And stop demanding it. A qualification is usually in order. This could avoid confusion among young players.

Those who proclaim, "the tongue arch compresses the air" (or any other T4) actually do expect to be taken literally. Especially when they proclaim, "It's simple physics!". (Most of the time it isn't that simple, and what they spout is hardly actual "physics")
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brassmoose
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2022 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I first reconsidered my playing this year, I found this video of Adam Rapa giving a lecture & I thought it was crazy talk. After further research & practice & gigging, I now find myself nodding the whole way through during repeated viewings and imitations. It's all in the whistle, and the whistle needs the tongue.

https://youtu.be/0y3BW5Pher0

If that's theory, here's application...Adam playing in NoLa. He just looks so effortless given the circumstances (playing loudly, no microphone, being entertaining / visually engaging). He looks and sounds like he could do this for days, letting the tongue do the heavy lifting. And Ashlin Parker is incredible as well...wow!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcPIAPZd4PE
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Mike Prestage
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2022 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Marc, I applaud you for making the video - it worked really well as a starting point for a discussion. There's loads here that relates to my particular interests in the conceptual side of trumpet playing and teaching but I've not managed to put any thoughts into writing yet. I'll just say this for now:

Notlem wrote:
Maybe then I can figure out where the block with big air is actually coming from, be it the lips, aperture collapsing, etc.
-marc


My feeling is that you'd benefit from taking a step back here. That is, rather than trying to directly solve the 'block with big air', aim to change how you play (and conceptualise playing), in all registers and at all dynamics, such that this issue fades into irrelevance. A big part of this would be listening critically (in the most positive sense of the word!) to your tone (and articulations) when playing in and below the staff, and cultivating a strong internal concept of trumpet sound. Please let me know if you're interested in what I'm getting at here.

Mike
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2022 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I found this video of Adam Rapa giving a lecture & I thought it was crazy talk.


Your initial thought was correct. No, the tongue does make the air "tell" the lips what tone to play. The lips themselves will determine that. The "whistle" frequency of that posture is far higher than the pitch he is playing. He is giving the lips no credit even though he is indeed controlling them with the lip muscles.

(Now if he would "Novocain" his lip muscles and do that I might buy it.)

Quote:
letting the tongue do the heavy lifting.


Lifting of what? The tongue arch DOES help make it easier to achieve certain high-pitch lip postures.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2022 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, can we now add Rapa to the Vizzutti list? What a bunch of rummies.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2022 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Steve A
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2022 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was thinking about the idea about the tongue compressing the air, and I have a thought experiment for people who believe that the tongue has a role in speeding up the air, which may or may not be an accurate model, but I strongly suspect kalijah will correct me (which would be welcome, if appropriate!) if I'm wrong.

Imagine we have two plastic water bottles, like the kind you get from a soda machine. Plastic water bottles have a funnel shape leading towards the cap, which is similar to the tongue/oral cavity shape that people say influences trumpet playing.

If you took, say, a sewing needle and poked equally sized and shaped holes in one bottle in the cap, and the other bottle on the side (where the writing is), and squeezed each bottle equally hard, the same amount of water would come out, at the same rate, right? The parts of the equation that would matter are the size of the hole, and the amount of pressure, not the funnel shape.
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Bethmike
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2022 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steve A,

I agree. I imagine that the role of my tongue is to create a funnel shape at the exit point of my oral cavity. And I can adjust the opening at the small end of the funnel.

Great video here by Phyllis Stork here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymwWGLV8AqA&t=188s Go to 3:00 to see the demo.

I like how Phyllis presents it so simply, gives a visual for us visual types, and doesn't get into Bernoulli's equation, compressible vs incompressible fluid flow, compression, etc. Dynamic systems of compressible fluids is not what most musicians study.

In any case, it is a visual that benefits me, and I am now playing above High C as a hobbyist after 2.5 years. Once warmed up, I can pick up horn, and hit a High C as my first note.

Mike
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2022 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Mark, I skimmed the video. I'm sorry I haven't watched it all, but there were a couple things you mentioned which I might draw your attention to:

"air block"
"big low register"
"I don't work on range daily"

I applaud your inquisitive mind - I am similarly built, but self lead this can be a spinning of the wheels. So my first suggestion is to hook up with Bryan Davis for a lesson. He is fantastic at relaying what you need to know, and helping you find your upper register.

Air block almost certainly points to overblowing - you also make reference to how loud you played your scale. Again, I'm gonna guess overblowing. Probably the #1 hurdle with working out the upper register. High notes need *almost zero* air flow to play. I'm exaggerating, but only a little.

Big low register can contribute to upper register issues - even and resonant in all registers is really the goal. One trap people who get carried away with low notes can fall into is losing form, getting really slack and unfocussed in the low register. I try to keep a similar focus and mouthpiece pressure low F# to high C, granted the next octave I to press (something I'm working on) but I also employ the concept of "neutralising pressure" and I don't try to blow hard up there, so it typically is in balance - for me. Neutralising pressure is a Reinhardt concept where the embouchure will push forwards equal to that of the instrument pulling back.

On that note - one of Reinhardt's saying was "nobody ever got hurt pressing the lips into the mouthpiece, but plenty have pressing the mouthpiece into the lips" (paraphrasing).

Once you have a good range routine (and from the little I saw and heard I feel like you will benefit from pp octave slurs, and soft response work rather than air/muscle building work - I think you have plenty of that naturally) I think you need to consider that daily work is needed. When I find I have issues and I go back to the routines Roger Ingram and Bryan Davis taught me - within a few days I am feeling much better, and in a week or 2 I feel like I am advancing.

Regarding this committment, it tends to be what separates those who figure it out and those who don't. Wayne talks about "finding" the notes. That's what Bryan will help you do. But you need to do it daily - IMO - a couple of years of doing Bryan's exercises daily will transform your upper register. You'll probably notice improvements within about 6 months, maybe sooner.

Regarding my own approach - the lip has to be supple to vibrate. If you add tension you compromise your sound, therefore I try to make things feel as relaxed as possible. Playing the leadpipe can remind you of this feeling provided you aren't used to preset tension in your leadpipe playing. Playing the leadpipe overtones (once the core and fundamental note is truly played well) can help you refine your air/resonance/coordination/effort levels. Roger Ingram's warmup is a superb starting point - you can find it in "clinical notes" - it consists of fluttering, breathing, playing a few notes on the mouthpiece, some air attacks, bends etc... only takes 2-3 mins. The more consistent you are in your approach to your daily routine the better. Hydration, warmup, drills, studies, rep, range, whatever it is... try to stay consistent in your hydration & warmup.

Hope this is of some use!

Best,
Mike
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