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San Antonio Sym Musicians Respond to Shutdown of Orchestra


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Shark01
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2022 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The thing that stands out to me are the meager "salaries" both pre and post labor strife, $35k before and $17k after. I assume these are experienced and talented musicians, so this is mind blowing. As a kind of Tuba to Violin comparison, my daughter starts her first job as a chemist (not a high paying STEM degree at the bachelor level) in Austin next week, salary $42k plus a really good benefit program.

So if I'm a symphony player there, I'm wondering if San Antonio (today) cannot afford a professional symphony.
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Subtropical and Subpar
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2022 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shark01 wrote:
The thing that stands out to me are the meager "salaries" both pre and post labor strife, $35k before and $17k after. I assume these are experienced and talented musicians, so this is mind blowing. As a kind of Tuba to Violin comparison, my daughter starts her first job as a chemist (not a high paying STEM degree at the bachelor level) in Austin next week, salary $42k plus a really good benefit program.

So if I'm a symphony player there, I'm wondering if San Antonio (today) cannot afford a professional symphony.


And I reckon, at least based on the similarly-sized area to San Antonio where I find myself today and the professional orchestra(s) in this area, the resumes of the younger musicians at San Antonio aren't going to be meaningfully different than the resumes of their counterparts in Boston, NYC, LA, Cleveland, etc: all will have gone to tippity top conservatories and many will have a master's and/or doctorate in musical performance as well. Win the audition at a big symphony, earn six figures. Don't win the audition at the major symphony (or there are no auditions available, in the case of some instruments), make poverty level wages. Not that much different than academia, where a few realize tenure and healthy earnings and most fall into the poverty purgatory of adjuncting, or law, where for every graduate who finds a good corporate job or successful career, six or seven others can't afford their loan payments. It's becoming very feast or famine out there, sadly.
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andybharms
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2022 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It makes me very sad how many misconceptions there are floating around this thread about being a professional orchestral musician.

You do not have to be in one of the “best orchestras” to make a good wage. There are orchestras that (in my opinion) play circles around orchestras that pay twice as much, even accounting for cost of living (although, it’s not a sporting event… even a supremely great orchestra can have a bad night). There are so many factors… MD, musician culture, section dynamics, hall, management, audition procedures, collective bargaining agreement, and everything in between.

There is not one singular equation that all orchestras use to balance the books. Some orchestras get a lot of state funding, some have a lot of donors, some do a lot of touring, some have large venues, some do more pops shows, some play a lot of Brahms, some do a lot of new music, etc etc. San Antonio as a metro has more than enough economy to support a fully professional orchestra. Orchestras don’t fold because their musicians are good or bad (there are a lot of really amazing per service orchestras, even some volunteer orchestras that would absolutely surprise you). They fold when their board is dysfunctional. And there are a lot of ways a board can be dysfunctional. It really only takes one bad board member to catastrophically disrupt an otherwise healthy organization. I’ve seen it happen firsthand multiple times.

Like there is not one way all orchestras use to pay the bills, there are infinite ways for orchestral musicians to pay the bills. Some orchestras are 26 weeks, leaving half the year to teach full time, run a side gig, coach CrossFit, raise a family, whatever you want to do. There are some world class musicians in those orchestras. Some orchestras are 52 weeks with average two shows per day. There are some phenomenal musicians in those, but there are also some that I find less awe inspiring personally. Either way, musicians who aren’t in a “Big Five” orchestra are not doomed to a life of poverty. You do not need a conservatory degree to win a job. A doctorate doesn’t qualify anyone to do anything by itself (trust me, I play in an orchestra and have a doctorate and they are two very different disciplines).

There are lots of reasons an orchestra might fold. But not in this case. San Antonio has had problems under this board/management in both good times and bad. I can only speculate, but that points to bad management. Reforming the group with new management has a high probability for success.
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Subtropical and Subpar
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

andybharms wrote:
Like there is not one way all orchestras use to pay the bills, there are infinite ways for orchestral musicians to pay the bills. Some orchestras are 26 weeks, leaving half the year to teach full time, run a side gig, coach CrossFit, raise a family, whatever you want to do. There are some world class musicians in those orchestras. Some orchestras are 52 weeks with average two shows per day. There are some phenomenal musicians in those, but there are also some that I find less awe inspiring personally. Either way, musicians who aren’t in a “Big Five” orchestra are not doomed to a life of poverty. You do not need a conservatory degree to win a job. A doctorate doesn’t qualify anyone to do anything by itself (trust me, I play in an orchestra and have a doctorate and they are two very different disciplines).


The common denominator here being those musicians need at least a second job to hypothetically pay their bills. As is the case for so many adjunct college professors and public defenders and district attorneys and low-paid professionals in all manner of disciplines. That does not make it right. It wasn't so long ago that such people could expect a living wage after their years and years in study/apprenticeship/grad school. Health insurance, even. No longer.

Virtually every professional musician I know in the four professional symphonies within a hundred miles of me who is Gen X, Millennial, or Gen Z is financially gasping for air, has been for years, and likely will be for the remainder of their days. It doesn't matter how many additional jobs they have. And up until the last year or so this is not an overly expensive part of the country.

I regret to point out that conservatories are lamentably well represented in lists of colleges with the highest costs of attendance and lowest graduate salaries. https://247wallst.com/special-report/2019/08/21/most-expensive-colleges-that-pay-off-the-least/. On the list: Cleveland Institute of Music, New School, Emerson, Julliard, University of the Arts, New England Conservatory of Music, California Institute of the Arts, Cornish College of the Arts, Manhattan School of Music, Berklee, and San Francisco Conservatory of the Arts coming in at #1. It literally has the highest costs relative to graduate income of any college with more than 100 students in the entire United States. S.F. Conservatory for the Arts has a median graduate income of $20,000/year... TEN YEARS after graduation. Berklee, New England Conservatory, Julliard, Manhattan School of Music? None have a median alumni income over $33,000 ten years after graduation. Brand new teachers in every state earn more than that, on average. Meanwhile the median one-bedroom apartment in either NYC or Boston is around $4,000 a month at the moment. Let's not pretend things are OK for music school grads.

In fact, MOST of the schools on that list are either music schools or art & design schools. That's not to knock the schools per se, but it is to observe that their economics are out of whack.
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andybharms
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Virtually every professional musician I know in the four professional symphonies within a hundred miles of me who is Gen X, Millennial, or Gen Z is financially gasping for air, has been for years, and likely will be for the remainder of their days. It doesn't matter how many additional jobs they have. And up until the last year or so this is not an overly expensive part of the country.


That’s just not true. I AM a Millennial. I know dozens, hundreds of people just in trumpet that fit your age description. I’m not denying it’s a tough field, but your assessment is not a real representation of what’s going on by any sample I have seen.
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Subtropical and Subpar
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2022 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

andybharms wrote:
Quote:
Virtually every professional musician I know in the four professional symphonies within a hundred miles of me who is Gen X, Millennial, or Gen Z is financially gasping for air, has been for years, and likely will be for the remainder of their days. It doesn't matter how many additional jobs they have. And up until the last year or so this is not an overly expensive part of the country.


That’s just not true. I AM a Millennial. I know dozens, hundreds of people just in trumpet that fit your age description. I’m not denying it’s a tough field, but your assessment is not a real representation of what’s going on by any sample I have seen.


We live in very different parts of the country, although I lived in New England for many years and am intimately familiar with the cost of living in Boston and eastern Massachusetts. Everyone I know down here (my name is a hint as to my location) in the 20something to mid 40something demographic is in a hard way. That includes the endowed chairs.

With respect, the study my link cites uses College Scorecard salary data, which the Department of Education sources straight from the tax returns of every student who has borrowed a federal student loan in a data-sharing arrangement with the IRS. It is as accurate as it gets. A decade after graduation, flying into mid-career, even the median graduates of the most prestigious conservatories earn less than the equivalent of $16/hour.
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trumpetchops
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2022 5:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Years ago in a faraway land some people got together and started a band. The band was successful and made a lot of money through ticket sales and donations.

Band: We have a lot of money and we're musicians. We need to focus on playing. How about if we hire someone to manage the money.

The band goes on and the fund grows.

Money manager: The fund is too much. I need help.

Band: Hire a few people to help. We want you to be happy and stay and do a good job with our money.

Money manager turns into, management

Management: We have a lot of bills and our management of the money didn't do well. We need to cut the musicians pay.

Other guy in management: But they hired us to help them.

Real Management: We need to worry about our jobs. They will still have jobs and just have to cut back.

Band: What the hell happened
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2022 7:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't mean this condescendingly, but this is a bit of the proverbial circular firing squad. A lot of these arguments are superfluous because the real problem is simply that there has been in our culture a big shift away from European centric musical art.

Yes, a certain amount of reform in symphony organization may be needed, but those reforms don't really mean much if they aren't accompanied by support and appreciation for that style music.

So, first there needs to be an aggressive and fundamental offensive in renewing appreciation for European based art. We all have to be involved in this. Or - be content with a blue-haired audience which will, as you will too, eventually disappear. Or - make creative, thinking out of the box about programming and promoting that new programming.

This is just one example, but I participated in a concert whose response was jaw-dropping. The local orchestra programmed a black & white, silent "futuristic" film accompanied by ultra-modern music. The hall was packed whereas, it would normally be nominally attended. But this time, the hall not only was sold out for all seating, cushions were spread about for an overflow crowd to sit on the floor. An extra concert was even added for the following night.

The music fit seamlessly into the film. But the point is, that if that music had been performed alone, the hall would've been half filled after the intermission. But because it fit seamlessly into the film, it was accepted without filter. And a lot of the attendees were young people.

We have to keep our eye on the main priorities and think out of the box. Fix the problems that are there, yes. But don't concentrate on the trees and ignore seeing the forest.
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JRoyal
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2022 10:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kehaulani,


I don’t think anyone here would disagree with that idea, but that does not that seem to be the issue here. The point everyone seems fixated on here is just 25-40% of the equation for most orchestras.

The question is about the other 60-75% of fundraising that falls to the board/fundraising apparatus.

You can pack the house all day long, but unless you plan to charge $ 300 for a back row seat to hear Beethoven that other percentage still remains. Conceptually this in line with the Baumol effect, but we are way past the point where ticket sales alone could make any of these organizations self sufficient.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2022 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JRoyal wrote:
...
You can pack the house all day long, but unless you plan to charge $ 300 for a back row seat to hear Beethoven that other percentage still remains. Conceptually this in line with the Baumol effect, but we are way past the point where ticket sales alone could make any of these organizations self sufficient.

-------------------------------------
The basic question about ticket sales is "what percentage of your hourly pay (or income, available funds, etc.) are you willing to spend on xyz?" .

And for many people the analysis of "what am I going to get out of it" is a major part of the calculation.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2022 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JRoyal wrote:
The question is about the other 60-75% of fundraising that falls to the board/fundraising apparatus.


Any organization relying on donations for 2/3 of what it takes to break even is in deep trouble. 50/50 OK, but 70/30 = not viable outside of a handful elite enough to attract major corporate donors.

The reality is that most orchestras depended on not just whales, but on the middle-class seeking to feel part of something a bit more elevated. Now that its no longer tax deductable for that middle-class, expect the most stalwart to still cut their donation by the third the government no-longer reimburses - and far more to just say forget-it.

Sales of product (tickets) have to become a more significant percentage of revenue for survival under the new tax codes. (and that probably means higher prices for a smaller house and yes, a smaller orchestra)
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JRoyal
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2022 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:
JRoyal wrote:
The question is about the other 60-75% of fundraising that falls to the board/fundraising apparatus.


Any organization relying on donations for 2/3 of what it takes to break even is in deep trouble. 50/50 OK, but 70/30 = not viable outside of a handful elite enough to attract major corporate donors.

The reality is that most orchestras depended on not just whales, but on the middle-class seeking to feel part of something a bit more elevated. Now that its no longer tax deductable for that middle-class, expect the most stalwart to still cut their donation by the third the government no-longer reimburses - and far more to just say forget-it.

Sales of product (tickets) have to become a more significant percentage of revenue for survival under the new tax codes. (and that probably means higher prices for a smaller house and yes, a smaller orchestra)


I meant to say ‘some orchestras’, however the missed point I made remains.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2022 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I find no reference in the OP to ticket sales, nor in the OP's two referenced links. Can some point those out, please?
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Subtropical and Subpar
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2022 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:
JRoyal wrote:
The question is about the other 60-75% of fundraising that falls to the board/fundraising apparatus.


Any organization relying on donations for 2/3 of what it takes to break even is in deep trouble. 50/50 OK, but 70/30 = not viable outside of a handful elite enough to attract major corporate donors.

The reality is that most orchestras depended on not just whales, but on the middle-class seeking to feel part of something a bit more elevated. Now that its no longer tax deductable for that middle-class, expect the most stalwart to still cut their donation by the third the government no-longer reimburses - and far more to just say forget-it.

Sales of product (tickets) have to become a more significant percentage of revenue for survival under the new tax codes. (and that probably means higher prices for a smaller house and yes, a smaller orchestra)


And unfortunately a lot of American symphonies only cover 30% to 40% of their expenses through ticket sales. Since a few of us are either in or from greater Boston, let's take a look at the BSO's 2018 IRS Form 990, which covers the BSO's finances through the end of their fiscal year that ended in August of 2019, the last "normal" year we have tax data for. https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/42103550/202031889349301618/full.

In that fiscal year BSO pulled in $41,278,495 in program service revenue, which $39,965,952 was revenue from concerts and tours, i.e. ticket sales. Part VIII, line 2a. That's across 405 concerts and 1.141 million audience members, per Part III, line 4a.

The BSO's total expenses that year were $109,772,097, so ticket sales covered about 35% of expenses at Boston, which has one of the largest and most loyal audiences in the US. To put it another way, ticket sales only covered a bit under 75% of the organization's almost $58 million payroll.

Where did the rest come from? $37 million and change from donations and grants, almost $11 million in investment income - the BSO is lucky to have an endowment that's larger than a lot of liberal arts colleges - and $6 million in other revenue.

In other words they lost $13 million in the fiscal year preceding the pandemic. They did net $4 million the year before, I should add.

It's tough for everyone, I think it's fair to say, whether you are in a smaller organization or the rare symphony that has, at of August 2021 (the most recent info available) $576 million in their endowment.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2022 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I play in a bunch of regional orchestras. I have contract positions in a couple and I sub in half a dozen others. I'm on the board of a small orchestra, and I'm also a real estate broker.

Pay for orchestra musicians is abysmal except for the top handful of orchestras in the US. The "full-time" groups in many cities barely pay a living wage. Subtropical and Subpar is exactly correct. Many musicians don't understand how abused and poorly paid they are because they live in a poverty bubble and don't understand that many "professionals" are paid and treated vastly better.

I have about 10 years of professional playing experience, an MM from Yale, BM from Eastman. Wanna know how much I earned playing the trumpet in my best year ever (2019)? $25k.

That's horrible. Lawyers who graduated from Yale the same year I did probably made at least 10x that same year. New college grads in marketing, business, etc get entry level office jobs paying $60k with full benefits. That's more than most full time orchestra jobs in the US.

People in other fields with a decade of experience and a master's degree are not making $25k, even notoriously low-paid and abused teachers in the poorest districts make more than that, and they have benefits and 3 months off. Bus drivers make more than symphony trumpet players in most cities. Probably a lot of 7-11 checkout clerks make more than I do (playing the trumpet).

My colleagues and peers suffer through this because they love music and try their very hardest to present this music to audiences despite ridiculously low pay and poor working conditions. The "minor league" folks like myself are very often excellent players, and I'm not just puffing myself up. Go listen to a regional orchestra, they're all full of Juilliard and Curtis and CIM alums who just didn't win a big audition for whatever reason. You'll hear very good playing, the level of musicianship and performance has risen dramatically over the last 20 years.
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Bachatit
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2022 2:32 pm    Post subject: Expectations vs Reality Reply with quote

I appreciate what you write, Kehaulani, and note that as late as 1962 (when classical music was enjoyed by a larger percentage of the American people) most musicians in major symphony orchestras were employed little more than six months annually at an average salary of $5,000 that was barely a living wage back then. Health insurance and pension benefits were virtually non-existent. It was difficult for them but that was the norm. Orchestra budgets and seasons grew over the years while the audience did not necessarily grow with it. I suspect that generous donors helped to bridge the gap but, as a recent WSJ article suggests, "charity giving" has dropped precipitously due to economic uncertaintly in recent years. Perhaps poor management is partly to blame but other factors play significant roles.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2022 4:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Expectations vs Reality Reply with quote

Bachatit wrote:
I appreciate what you write, Kehaulani, and note that as late as 1962 (when classical music was enjoyed by a larger percentage of the American people) most musicians in major symphony orchestras were employed little more than six months annually at an average salary of $5,000 that was barely a living wage back then. Health insurance and pension benefits were virtually non-existent. It was difficult for them but that was the norm. Orchestra budgets and seasons grew over the years while the audience did not necessarily grow with it. I suspect that generous donors helped to bridge the gap but, as a recent WSJ article suggests, "charity giving" has dropped precipitously due to economic uncertaintly in recent years. Perhaps poor management is partly to blame but other factors play significant roles.



Err... $5,000 in 1962 is equivalent to $48,716 at the moment. That's not bad for six months' work. In fact, it's vastly higher than the median wages of any conservatory's grads ten years after graduation as per the link I provided earlier. I think the ten years' out medians for Julliard and Berklee were both around $33,000.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2022 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, absolutely Subtropical and Subpar! However, I am not writing about salaries of music school graduates. I am suggesting that managers of major orchestras of the past did not pay for full time orchestras but rather paid for part time orchestras. And $5000 in 1962 ($48,000 in today's dollars as you indicate) is less than what major orchestras jobs are paying today. The top 5 paying US orchestras all have a base pay of greater than 140K (plus other benefits that did not exist in , say, 1962). Frankly, I think these orchestras and many others should be paid more but the sad reality is that ticket sales and donors have to cover those expenses.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2022 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It would so neat if every city over, say 50k population could afford a high-quality symphony paid for exclusively through ticket sales. I've often dreamt of what a perfect world would look like
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