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Jeff_Purtle Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Mar 2003 Posts: 932 Location: Greenville, South Carolina
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kalijah Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Nov 2003 Posts: 3257 Location: Alabama
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Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2022 11:01 am Post subject: |
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Some mental gymnastics to define "involuntary" and attribute that to the diaphragm.
When breathing to play a brass instrument we DO take conscious control of the breathing apparatus of the body. That includes the diaphragm ALONG WITH all of the other muscles involved in inhalation or exhalation actions.
Just because you can not isolate one muscle of a group that work in tandem does not mean that muscle is "involuntary".
By the same reasoning, the tongue natural rises as one "tensions" the embouchure to ascend. (It is the "debris-expelling" action of the mouth/lips mechanism). So by his definition of "involuntary" the tongue is thereby involuntary when we ascend using particular lip postures.
So Jeff, is the tongue involuntary? |
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Billy B Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Feb 2004 Posts: 6126 Location: Des Moines
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Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2022 4:33 am Post subject: |
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kalijah wrote: | Some mental gymnastics to define "involuntary" and attribute that to the diaphragm.
When breathing to play a brass instrument we DO take conscious control of the breathing apparatus of the body. That includes the diaphragm ALONG WITH all of the other muscles involved in inhalation or exhalation actions.
Just because you can not isolate one muscle of a group that work in tandem does not mean that muscle is "involuntary".
By the same reasoning, the tongue natural rises as one "tensions" the embouchure to ascend. (It is the "debris-expelling" action of the mouth/lips mechanism). So by his definition of "involuntary" the tongue is thereby involuntary when we ascend using particular lip postures.
So Jeff, is the tongue involuntary? |
We are all so fortunate to have your unparalleled level of expertise on this forum. Thank you so much! _________________ Bill Bergren |
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kalijah Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Nov 2003 Posts: 3257 Location: Alabama
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Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2022 5:16 am Post subject: |
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I do agree with his premise that the popular descriptions of actions as "use the diaphragm" is just popular language and not necessarily accurate.
In a nutshell. The muscle of the diaphragm is active on inhalation and relaxed on exhalation. And even then, the muscular contribution of the diaphragm is weak relative to what the external intercostals contribute to forced inhalation. |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 8965 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2022 9:16 am Post subject: |
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healthlines states that: "The phrenic nerve, which runs from the neck to the diaphragm, controls the movement of the diaphragm." Wouldn't this imply that the diaphragm is a passive muscle, as the above videos and opinion of the MD conclude? _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3276 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2022 9:27 am Post subject: |
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kalijah wrote: | .. And even then, the muscular contribution of the diaphragm is weak relative to what the external intercostals contribute to forced inhalation. |
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I read briefly about the muscles of inhalation, but am confused about the muscles that move the rim cage.
Do those muscles actually exert a pull that directly enlarges the torso volume (which allows the lungs to fill), or do they just 'position' the rim cage so that the lungs can be filled more fully by the action of the diaphragm lowering?
Yes, it's a very minor point, but I'm just curious about the physiology. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3276 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2022 9:43 am Post subject: |
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kehaulani wrote: | healthlines states that: "The phrenic nerve, which runs from the neck to the diaphragm, controls the movement of the diaphragm." Wouldn't this imply that the diaphragm is a passive muscle, as the above videos and opinion of the MD conclude? |
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What are you using as a definition of a 'passive muscle' (online reference perhaps)? And what do you think is special about the particular nerve that controls the diaphragm?
In situations where there is no concern about breathing, the diaphragm is activated without any conscious control - similar to the heart beating, or eye pupil adjusting. But the diaphragm can be willfully controlled when desired. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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