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LaTrompeta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 May 2015 Posts: 867 Location: West Side, USA
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Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2022 10:28 am Post subject: Vacchiano, Mel Broiles on D |
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I've been watching this gem of a video and noticed that he said Vacchiano suggested he just "bypass" the C trumpet (because of its inherent intonation issues) and go straight to D trumpet.
Was this common for Vacchiano? I know that he was probably the master of transposition, so I can't imagine that was an issue for him. I am curious what the sound of a D trumpet would be like in an orchestra and especially, why he felt the D trumpet was more "in tune" than a C trumpet.
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Scooter Pirtle Veteran Member
Joined: 12 Nov 2007 Posts: 143 Location: Phoenix, AZ
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Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2022 11:51 am Post subject: |
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Starting at 5:17 in this video might give an idea. The microphone placements are peculiar for this program (very dry non-resonate sound), but offers a great glimpse of what the musicians hear on stage. Vacchiano uses D trumpet:
[youtube] https://youtu.be/0qIQRtqOX74[/youtube] _________________ Scooter Pirtle
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JRoyal Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Apr 2003 Posts: 770
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Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2022 12:01 pm Post subject: |
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There is a good bit written about Vacchiano’s use and preference of the D trumpet in itg and various sources, including by his former students and first hand interviews, and Brian Shook’s excellent book.
My impression was the accuracy of the D outweighed other issues. He supposedly once told a colleague ‘that they should swtich to D trumpet, it will add years to their career’ ….to which the reply was, “why would I want to do that”. |
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Irving Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Feb 2003 Posts: 1884
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Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2022 12:27 pm Post subject: |
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Vacchiano used the D trumpet quite a bit in the later part of his career. He taught his students how to use it, and when to use it. I remember the brutal sight reading you would have to do with the D trumpet in mind, such as transposing an etude with 5 flats a major third down (which puts you in A major, or B double flat, your choice ). If you want to hear something amazing, look for the recording of Mahler 7th with the NY Phil made with Bernstein in the sixties. The opening of the 5th movement is incredible. Played on a D trumpet, specially made according to Vacchiano. He mentioned that ..."it came out like a bullet..."Go through the Young Peoples' Concerts with Bernstein (on youtube)to see the D trumpet being used.
About Mel Broiles. He studied with Vacchiano, and they became close friends. He was a die hard Bb trumpet player, probably the last one playing first trumpet in an orchestra in the USA, and didn't like the C trumpet, as he mentioned. Vacchiano must have encouraged him to use a D trumpet, like he did with all of his students, although when Broiles studied with him, I'm not sure if he was using a D much.
About Broile's horn. I guess he didn't like the Bach 236 that Vacchiano used to use. That is also the horn he had his students get. I had one, and decided to trade it in for the DL, a cut down C trumpet, similar to what Broiles had, which had recently come out. I walked into a lesson with this horn, and Vacchiano hit the ceiling. He was pretty even tempered, but he really didn't like large bore horns. At least not this one. So I got a verbal thrashing, and ended up getting another 236, trading in the 239. Vacchiano used smaller horns, but got a huge sound out of them.
La Trompeta: The D trumpet could be more in tune than the C trumpet depending on the key the music is in. For example in C the D trumpet can can actually be more in tune than a C trumpet. No sharp top line Gs, no flat Ds. It all depends on the key that the music is in. |
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LaTrompeta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 May 2015 Posts: 867 Location: West Side, USA
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Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2022 12:41 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you, there is a wealth of knowledge here that I haven't heard. It makes me wonder, then, why there is such a heavy preference for C trumpet in the modern orchestra. In my mind, perhaps 90% of lit could be done well with either Bb or D trumpet and you can avoid some of the pitfalls of C. _________________ Please join me as well at:
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Irving Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Feb 2003 Posts: 1884
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Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2022 1:30 pm Post subject: |
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Well some people still use a D sometimes. Vacchiano thought that people don't use the D because they aren't used to the transposition. Some guys use the Eb, but I think that the D is actually a better key for orchestral work, although the Eb will work as well. There again, it depends on the key of the work. If you are really proficient on the C, then maybe you just want to carry one horn to work. Whatever works for you. |
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LaTrompeta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 May 2015 Posts: 867 Location: West Side, USA
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Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2022 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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I remember, in college, I played mostly C Trumpet. I never owned a D/Eb at any point in time. I always enjoyed playing the Eb trumpet but didn't spend much time on the D trumpet. Now I would like to purchase one to see how much I actually enjoy playing it. _________________ Please join me as well at:
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Vin DiBona Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2003 Posts: 1473 Location: OHare area
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Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2022 2:43 pm Post subject: |
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Many D trumpets do not have the sound needed in most works in today's orchestras. A player might use it for certain passages and on some modern works with great success, but on a big Bruckner symphony and other large scale works, it will get too bright or get buried by the other brass.
Baroque music such as Bach will sound great on one.
Eb trumpets with larger bells do seem to work better in the orchestra.
Much of what was done years ago isn't going to make it today.
R. Tomasek |
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tuningbell470 Regular Member
Joined: 16 Sep 2015 Posts: 23 Location: London
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Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2022 2:38 am Post subject: |
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The D (and Eb) trumpets are an indispensable tool for most orchestral players in the UK, especially for those who don't use the C trumpet. Between these trumpets there's often a workaround for tricky intonation. Depending on the venue/passage being played it can sometimes be difficult to tell if a smaller instrument is being used. Ideal!
An earlier post mentioned the potential validity of doing the orchestral repertoire on a Bb and D, which would be similar to the common British tradition of Bb and Eb (Bb for most works, Eb/D for soft/high/delicate playing or to get more control in tricky passages such as that lick in Bartok's concerto for orchestra).
A lot of the time it's actually more useful having a more compact sounding D/Eb trumpet to avoid getting the hand from conductors in classical symphonies or smaller scale works. That being said, Paul Beniston of the LPO uses a D trumpet for parts of Mahler 5 (including the opening) to great effect! _________________ Trumpeting in progress
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LaTrompeta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 May 2015 Posts: 867 Location: West Side, USA
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Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2022 2:40 am Post subject: |
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tuningbell470 wrote: | The D (and Eb) trumpets are an indispensable tool for most orchestral players in the UK, especially for those who don't use the C trumpet. Between these trumpets there's often a workaround for tricky intonation. Depending on the venue/passage being played it can sometimes be difficult to tell if a smaller instrument is being used. Ideal!
An earlier post mentioned the potential validity of doing the orchestral repertoire on a Bb and D, which would be similar to the common British tradition of Bb and Eb (Bb for most works, Eb/D for soft/high/delicate playing or to get more control in tricky passages such as that lick in Bartok's concerto for orchestra).
A lot of the time it's actually more useful having a more compact sounding D/Eb trumpet to avoid getting the hand from conductors in classical symphonies or smaller scale works. That being said, Paul Beniston of the LPO uses a D trumpet for parts of Mahler 5 (including the opening) to great effect! |
Now, this is very interesting. Thanks for responding! _________________ Please join me as well at:
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Trumpetinberlin Regular Member
Joined: 16 May 2020 Posts: 13
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Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2022 5:27 am Post subject: |
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I think, the tradition using C trumpets in the orchestra in the US maybe comes frome the Boston(french) Scholl of Mager and Voisin. Maybe i‘m wrong.
30,40 years ago the bflat trumpet was standard in Germany, but it switched to C trumpet, mainly for the principal.
There is a lot of use of the eflat trumpet in the UK, maybe because of the Brass bands. Check out the Mahler 2 with CBSO and Rattle on YouTube or some BBC Proms concerts with British orchestras. |
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