Mouthpieces and the Extreme Upper Register

[Destructo]

Most "lead" player (Bergeron, Ingram, Miyashiro, Jim Manley et al) do use the 'right tool for the job' meaning a shallow cup etc. Yeah, exceptions, I know, but most do.

Anyway, while I was kicking around in the Pickett website, I noticed in the description for Ingram's mouthpieces that the studio model (all rounder) mouthpiece says something like 'Ingram does not attempt to play in the extreme upper register on this model' or something like that. Keep in mind that the Studio model is still fairly small and shallow compared to most standard mouthpieces.

We often hear folks say things like 'range is not about the mouthpiece' and that 'you'll have the same range on any mouthpiece' and that a lead mouthpiece is more about timbre/sizzle and so on.

And I appreciate the point of this, but I do wonder if there comes a point (different for different folks) for players where the mouthpiece does really actually matter quite a lot in making something possible. I wonder how many lead players could actually cleanly and repeatedly articulate a robust 4th leger G, without killing themselves, and not be toast after a few minutes, on any standard C cup mouthpiece? And I say articulate, because slurring up to a decent GG is much easier than going "BAM" and hitting it straight on with a clean attack.

Could Wayne Bergeron convincingly play O Holy Night on a 3C? Could Vizzutti triple tongue those arpeggios up to double C and back in Carnival of Venice on anything notably deeper than his 'very shallow' mouthpiece? What would Jim Manley sound like playing above High C on a 7/3/1.5C? I suspect the answers are probably 'No', 'No', and 'Not great'.

I guess what I'm trying to get at is that I wonder if some players really do just need a shallow/small mouthpiece in order to play anywhere near to their best? If Vizzutti hadn't stumbled on his 14a4 and ended up on a 1.5C, would he be a 'high D' player like so many?

Basically, I am asking how often great upper register players would struggle to play in the upper register without the right equipment.

How often does the right mouthpiece set the conditions for success rather than being merely a matter of timbre? The common denominator is equipment that provides a sense of ease doing what is required, and everything gets built around that. But without that ease, the best you can hope for is to get strong enough to muscle everything. But that isn't what the great players are doing. And I'm not at all convinced that 'ease' is something that is independent of the equipment?

[Jaw04]

I do believe that a shallow mouthpiece can help a player discover range. It forces you to play without a lot of lip protrusion, and makes higher notes come out a little bit louder with less air. I also think that if you are playing a lot of high notes and need to play them with a loud sizzling sound, a lead piece is appropriate. However, if you are playing typical music like jazz, classical soloist, or section playing, you will probably prefer the tone and response of a deeper mouthpiece even if a lead piece helped your development. It is possible to discover the upper register on lead equipment and then transfer some of what you learned to all-around equipment.

Furthermore, you get used to your equipment. So what might be a lead piece for one person will be an all-around piece for another person. The "all-around" studio Ingram is shallow to some, but if his lead piece is shallower, it works well as an all-around piece for him. It's all relative. If you eat spicy food every day, Sriracha is very mild. But if you never eat spicy food it's quite spicy. If you play a Bach 1X, a 3C might feel like a lead piece to you. If you play a shallow piece frequently, for example a Shew Lead a lot, a 3C will feel, and behave, like a symphonic mouthpiece to you.

[delano]

My experience is that pros like those can play anything on any mouthpiece from a 10.5C to a 1X and you will not hear big differences.

[Destructo]

[delano]

[Destructo]

[delano]

I din't realize that you was only talking about the extreme upper register. Most regular lead players I know play up rather easy to high G and above that, they will often lose sound. They can do that on any mouthpiece but of course a 1X is not very handy for a whole gig.
I know a few classical players who play up to high G with an effortless sound, no real difference with G an octave below. And on big equipment.
The typical screamers, IMO a specialist business, may have their own rules.

Don't believe what you see from Arturo, he is often acting, let the public believe he gives everything, but he can play anything easy. And yes, he is not a typical screamer, can't be, he needs another sound for his (allround) playing.
A quote here from John Mohan on this forum:

John Mohan
Heavyweight Member
PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2016 11:34 am

Arturo Sandoval moved to and has been doing most of his playing on a Mt Vernon 1-1/4C for several years now. I thought he was just using it for practice but he enlightened me on that point earlier today. It's interesting that if you line up a Mt Vernon 1-1/4C (not the modern 1-1/4C) on the Kanstul Comparator with the Mt Vernon 3C their rims are actually fairly similarly shaped. But that 1-1/4C cup is definitely deeper. Arturo proves that one can play the entire register with full power with bigger mouthpieces, but like Arturo, you have to be willing to put in the practice time. Arturo says the reason for using the bigger 1-1/4C is the sound he gets with it.

[JayKosta]

[zaferis]

[kehaulani]

I don't know why the disconnect. Most lead players I knew, played with a cup smaller than a Bach C and a diameter of about a Bach 7 or smaller, like a Giardinelli 6M, Purviance 5*K4 (if memory serves). In fact, studio legend Ray Triscari gave me one of is mouthpieces which was so small. it made my chops bleed.

I don't think many would disagree that one can play high notes on a large mouthpiece, but other f things are also factored in, like endurance, enhancing the upper partials, etc.

Arturo plays great as do some other large mouthpiece players, but are they the norm or the exception?

,
_________________
"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird

Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn

[delano]

Tsja mr. K. It is the OP who is convinced that the great highblowers can't do that on a big(ger) mouthpiece. Seems to be important for him.

And I think your avatar of the trumpet playing mr. Richard Nixon is very funny.

[peanuts56]

Recent youtube videos I heard of Arturo sound like he's lost a little luster in the upper register.
I've heard him live twice. First time was in 03 and his final note of the evening was a G over Double C that was ear splitting. Maybe 5 or 6 years later I heard him again and it just wasn't there. Could have been an off night or maybe Father Time.
I'm wondering if Arturo may need to go to some smaller equipment mouthpiece wise. I'm guessing he's somewhere in his 70's. Baseball players will go to a lighter bat in their later years to keep the same bat speed. Father Time catches up to all of us. I could run a 5 minute mile in my 20's and averaged 6 minute miles in road races up to a half marathon. By the time I was in my 40's that was a distant memory. At 66 it's all but forgotten.

[delano]

Maybe he prefers playing the piano nowadays...

[patdublc]

Roger had me try playing each mouthpiece in his standard set just to see how I sounded on them. I don't want to go off on that tangent, but I mostly sounded like me instead of Roger.
Why not reach out to Roger and ask about that particular comment? I think he would probably be willing to talk about it. He loves to talk all things trumpet.

Jens has that famous rant that everybody should be able to play on something in the 3C-7C size range. And that everything outside of that is special purpose. But there are still so many examples of people that do other things and make them work.

The way Arturo plays is just not known to me. Then look at Faddis. His mouthpiece is not particularly small. It's also heavy weight and he plays a horn with a very heavy bell.

To answer the OP, yes, I believe that some of the players mentioned would suffer if they had to play on a 1.25C or something like that. Most would probably find a way to make it work, but why? They've already found what works for them.
_________________
Pat Shaner
Play Wedge Mouthpieces by Dr. Dave exclusively.
Experiment with LOTS of horn makes and models.

[Destructo]

[Shaft]

“Muscle-ing everything” - that is the approach which could quite possibly be why more people do not achieve the range that they would like.

Some players will tell you that they played in a manner that did not achieve the results that they now attain. They are referencing the playing technique in these cases and not so much equipment choice.

As far as those who have gotten the knack for things due to finding the right equipment and having that ease help them. Its possible that happens.

However, I could buy great carpentry equipment and not do anywhere near a journeyman’s quality.

There’s no fixed rule to a lot of things but the attributes of various equipment choices are spoken of for a reason. On the other hand there was a time when people played on something because “that is what they had” and it was “what was available”.

At the end of the day. Speaking for myself, I play what I play on simply because that’s what I wanted to play on. Perhaps its that way for other players too.

[RussellDDixon]

My two cents ... Arturo; Charley Davis; Jerry Hey and one of the other lead players for Buddy Rich (name escapes me) play(ed) in the upper register with a Bach 3C mouthpiece. On the other hand, within Vizzutti's old blog on his old website ... he mentiones playing everything (orchestral and lead in big band) on a Schilke 14A4E (that Schilke mistakenly sent him). He even mentions that due to the "stigma" of using a shallower mouthpiece, he tried to keeep his hid during orchestral sessions (or something to that effect).

I CANNOT play the same range on my Marcinkiewicz Claude Gordon Personal mouthpiece as I can on ANY of my Lead pieces. Maybe someone playing on a very middle of the road mouthpiece (FOR THEM INDIVIDUALLY) can do this. I can get a very good tone for four octaves on my Monette Prana mouthpiece.

It remains my contention (due to my own experience) ... that equipment DOES MATTER and can indeed drastically improve ones playing. I played a Bach 7C for many years and finally began to "experiment." This is before the internet was invented . Back in the day when you had to read your Band Directors "Instrumentalist" magazine to look at mouthpiece ads and read MF's or Kenton's Fan letters etc. I finally found my way to a 10.5C diameter and this helped me tremendously.

Regardless of what anyone thinks (and contrary to the Cheater Mouthpiece Paradigm) ... a shallower piece FORCES you to play correctly because if you try to use alot of brute force ... you bottom out. Whereas you can use alot of mouthpiece pressure on a deeper cut and to borrow a phrase from Dave Monette ... it is more forgiving.

I never had any lessons because there were no teachers anywhere near me when I was growing up and the one "professor" in college sucked as a player. His tone was weak and he did not approach the horn correctly from a physical standpoint at all.

My opinion from MY EXPERIENCE. Others are Welcome to have other opinions.
_________________
Schilke X3 Bb trumpet
Yamaha 631g Flugelhorn
Lynn Nicholson Model Monette Prana XLT mouthpiece
Kanstul Claude Gordon Personal mouthpiece

[patdublc]

[quote="Destructo"]

[Shaft]

That part about being forced to play in a way that is efficient is what I have experienced too. A smaller mpc will let you know in many ways if something is off. Then again there is planty of bang for the buck when the approach is working. Saxophone players have something possibly similar with metal vs plastic mpcs if I recall.

From 2001 until a few years ago I played a Curry 70m .660 (1E equivalent?)
Then a 70s .660 (1f?) Last October after a lesson I decided to start going smaller I.D. Gradually from 70 to 60 to maybe 30. Then zeroed in on a JMZ14 this spring. I.D. .600 I think.

The low notes were speaking each step of the way and other characteristics were to my liking. Learning how to feel that standing wave in the trumpet and working with its resistance with trying to use only the necessary effort was key though. Its very possible that players learn that aspect very early on. I never even conceived of the standing wave until last fall. Before that it was just firehose of air for 30 years. We all know that game.

As far as the accomplished players of the instrument are concerned it is fun to wonder. There is no doubt players like Cat, Maynard, Bergeron, Manley and others found their approach but I would never feel the need to suggest they couldn’t play something or that they should play on a Curry TF or a Bach 1 for what they do mostly because of timbre and the color palette.

If they ever went into a different approach or musical style like symphony work I’m sure their ability and aptitude would do them justice but it doesn’t matter to me how an artist makes their art. I’m just thankful that they do.

[Destructo]

Have been avoiding looking at the new replies, fearing it was going to turn into a pile-on here. Fortunately, it hasn't.