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Repair vs restore, play vs look, and effect on value



 
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2022 6:37 am    Post subject: Repair vs restore, play vs look, and effect on value Reply with quote

I’m going to grab a quote from an old thread that went on for pages debating between the merits of repairing (and modifying) a horn to be cosmetically and/or functionally ideal, vs having one restored to original condition (if possible), and the effect of such decisions on value.

Halflip wrote:
adagiotrumpet wrote:
According to a conversation I had with Josh Landress, a total cosmetic restoration, at least in my own case, lowered the value of one of my horns.

Did he say approximately how much the value was lowered?

I am interested in whether it was a 'precipitous' drop in value, along the lines of those classic stories where someone has a Chippendale Regency dining set restored and is told, "That would have been worth $10,000, but now that it's been refinished, I wouldn't give you 500 bucks for it."

In a subsequent post I made to this thread, I said, "My statement only says that, in my personal experience, I haven't witnessed a case where a brass instrument has dropped precipitously in monetary value on the 'open market' due to an expert cosmetic restoration."


This past spring I had a chance to play on a fairly rare and very vintage trumpet. It took me three notes to realize that this absolutely perfect looking horn played NOTHING like that model originally would have. The key question then was, would it be worth less than the norm (“norm” being a somewhat challenging term when only a couple of these might sell on EBay in a year) because it played so much brighter and harsher than an original, or would it sell for more because of its spectacular appearance? In the end, it sold for more than twice the norm for one that played accurately, but, without major dents etc., still showed the effects of 90 years on original finish.

Here comes another test:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/175374717896?_trksid=p11021.c100851.m5053&_trkparms=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fitm%2F175374717896%3F_trkparms%3Damclksrc%3DITM%26aid%3D1110006%26algo%3DHOMESPLICE.SIM%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20170803121420%26meid%3Dd6c9968edcff43b98256ec100f36315d%26pid%3D100851%26rk%3D4%26rkt%3D4%26b%3D1%26sd%3D265815602856%26itm%3D175374717896%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D11021%26algv%3DDefaultOrganic%26brand%3DMartin+Committee&_trksid=p11021.c100851.m5053&mkevt=1&mkpid=0&emsid=e11021.m5053.l9430&mkcid=7&ch=osgood&euid=93d5c2a6592a4badab8fdca2ece6415a&bu=44269687977&ut=RU&exe=0&ext=0&osub=-1%7E1&crd=20220806021419&segname=11021

This is a 2-bore Handcraft Committee. It has been stripped, it looks great to the casual observer (though someone who knows what they are looking for can see that the metal has been worked), it has been subjected to both acid bath and ultrasonic (both of which are occasionally necessary, but do deteriorate the horn), has had an expert rebuilding of the valves, and is being sold nicely polished by someone recommending the use of Brasso. To a historian, this ones a hard “pass”. With the refinishing, body work, and the effects of building out the valves, it wont play original either, but will it play “better” for someone? I guess we will see. The asking price, like my example, is about double what I have for comps on 2-bore Committees from 2020 and 2021.

So, the question remains, does it pay to completely alter a horn to make it look nice, even if it changes how it plays - or to alter one to also play differently because you want it to - or should vintage be left alone so long as it still functions representatively?

-------------------------------
And I see the url tool isn't working again ......
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Andy Cooper
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2022 8:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"because it played so much brighter and harsher than an original,"

Typical symptoms of too much gap and in some cases really bad valve alignment. I don't remember of the Martins were "gappless" or not. If so, measure from the tightest portion of the leadpipe to the end of the mouthpiece. If this is the case, it is easily resolved with a custom backbore and a valve alignment. Nothing invasive to the instrument.
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Dayton
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2022 8:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
So, the question remains, does it pay to completely alter a horn to make it look nice, even if it changes how it plays - or to alter one to also play differently because you want it to - or should vintage be left alone so long as it still functions representatively?


It depends on who the purchaser is. A collector might value authenticity over playability. Someone who intends to make their living playing the horn probably values playability over authenticity.
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yourbrass
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2022 10:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

An interesting question, for sure.

A pristine, original example of any instrument will bring a good price.

Restoration is sometimes necessary due to damage.

With the cost of labor, parts, plating and/or lacquering, it's difficult to come out with much of a profit in selling it.

The example of my recently restored Calicchio:
$1500 purchase
Lots of labor in correcting factory errors. ( I was lucky enough to find one that no one had ever worked on.)
New leadpipe ($150)
Refitted valves $400
Custom-tinted lacquer $300

With the shipping costs, I'm north of $2,500 on this instrument, and I doubt it would bring much more than that in this bad market.

That being said, I don't really care because the horn plays exactly as I'd hoped - the perfect setup for jazz.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2022 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andy Cooper wrote:
"because it played so much brighter and harsher than an original,"

Typical symptoms of too much gap and in some cases really bad valve alignment. I don't remember of the Martins were "gappless" or not. If so, measure from the tightest portion of the leadpipe to the end of the mouthpiece. If this is the case, it is easily resolved with a custom backbore and a valve alignment. Nothing invasive to the instrument.


Actually, in this case it was due to the extremely hard temper of the bell after mirror-like restoration from severely battered and crushed. Annealing might have helped, but is challenging and was not done.
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2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2022 10:40 am    Post subject: Re: Repair vs restore, play vs look, and effect on value Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:
...
So, the question remains, does it pay to completely alter a horn to make it look nice, even if it changes how it plays - or to alter one to also play differently because you want it to - or should vintage be left alone so long as it still functions representatively? ...

-------------------------------------------------
'does it pay' depends on the view of the eventual owner.
If you own the horn and plan to keep it, what's your view?
If you own the horn and want to sell it, what's the view of your 'likely customers'?
--
and yes, lots of bad things happen because
'it seemed like a good idea at the time'
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2022 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yourbrass wrote:
the perfect setup for jazz.


Based on your signature "Calicchio 2/7 ML", that's a good example of different people having different tastes. I would pick a 3/7 or even 3/9.

Shows why people tend to have horns tweaked (whereas I just add to the collection....)
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2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
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Halflip
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2022 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You've laid the question out very nicely, Ron. From your own example, it would appear that a restoration can pay (monetarily, at least). In fact, any of your choices might "pay" the best depending on the buyer population demographics at the time of sale.

There's really nothing keeping anyone from making any of the three choices you ultimately list, nor is there a universal moral imperative that would/should make them feel guilty about their choice.

Having said this, I'd like to share an opinion from a context outside the realm of individual ownership:

I think it would be very nice if there were a guarantee that at least one example of every significant brass instrument could be preserved in its original manufactured form for reference by players, designers, and anyone else having an interest in authentic playing experiences on unmolested, historically accurate design specimens. As long as that guarantee was in place, I wouldn't have much concern about what individual owners did with their horns.

If I were a multi-millionaire, I might even undertake the acquisition and curation of such an 'ultimate reference collection' myself. However, the true intrinsic worth of such an effort would depend on how many people would actually care. A lot of folks profess a great love for the preservation of the S.S. United States, but the official conservancy for this effort has staggered through the decades on a "shoestring" of funds and interest while the stripped metal hull of this once great ship rots at a dock in Philadelphia.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2022 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Halflip wrote:
I think it would be very nice if there were a guarantee that at least one example of every significant brass instrument could be preserved in its original manufactured form for reference by players, designers, and anyone else having an interest in authentic playing experiences on unmolested, historically accurate design specimens.

It would be nice if the Smithsonian or the MIM shared that goal. Though there are a few of us willing to make 6-figure valued donations of examples, no institution is willing to undertake the effort.

Halflip wrote:
A lot of folks profess a great love for the preservation of the S.S. United States, but the official conservancy for this effort has staggered through the decades on a "shoestring" of funds and interest while the stripped metal hull of this once great ship rots at a dock in Philadelphia.

Another example would be USS Olympia, perhaps the most significant vessel in the geopolitical and cultural history of the United States. She was the flagship of the fleet that in a matter of hours transformed the United States from a Jeffersonian backwater to a global power by destroying the Spanish Navy, one of the "Great Powers" of the age of imperialism, without a single combat casualty (though one heart attack) on our side. It embodied the transition from rural-agrarian and isolationist, to industrial and global. No other ship ever was the focal point of such a complete change in the perception and the reality of a nation-state.

In 3 decades, they have only been able to raise 10 million to keep her afloat (the oldest steel vessel still floating)
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2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2022 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most players, if given a choice, are going to prefer and will be willing to pay more for a horn with a pristine appearance. So, restoring a horn raises the value to most players. Whether the increased value exceeds the cost of the restoration is another matter entirely.

I have two Martin Committee trumpets: (1) A 1956 Deluxe M bore I restored. It's in pristine condition. Everyone would agree that it looks great. Whether you think it plays great or like it did when new would be a matter of opinion. To me it plays great. (2) A 1953 L bore with the Deluxe engraving and Deluxe nickel silver tubes (this horn is not marked "Deluxe" because it predates the official "Deluxe" designation). It's all original. The lacquer is about 90%. To me it plays great.

So, would it be worth it to fully restore the L bore so it's pristine like the M bore? All it would take is relacquering. Would restoring it raise the value more than the cost of the restoration? In the case of the L bore I doubt restoring it would raise it's value more than the cost of the restoration but it might come close. It's fine to me as is.

As a collector I can tell you that the cosmetic condition of a horn does influence me in terms of arriving at a value. I'm looking for a Burbank Benge 2X+ to complete my Benge collection but I'm interested only in an example that is in extremely fine condition and needs nothing to be considered pristine or very close to pristine (like my other Benge trumpets).

The hassle of having to restore a horn to have it meet my appearance requirements has a very negative effect on the value I place on the horn. In that regard, there's a point at which the horn has no value to me at all because of the time, money and stress commitments in restoring it.

Just to be clear, a serious mechanical problem, such as having to do a valve restoration, is a deal killer for me no matter how good the cosmetics are.
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2022 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most players, if given a choice, are going to prefer and will be willing to pay more for a horn with a pristine appearance. So, restoring a horn raises the value to most players. Whether the increased value exceeds the cost of the restoration is another matter entirely.

I have two Martin Committee trumpets: (1) A 1956 Deluxe M bore I restored. It's in pristine condition. Everyone would agree that it looks great. Whether you think it plays great or like it did when new would be a matter of opinion. To me it plays great. (2) A 1953 L bore with the Deluxe engraving and Deluxe nickel silver tubes (this horn is not marked "Deluxe" because it predates the official "Deluxe" designation). It's all original. The lacquer is about 90%. To me it plays great.

So, would it be worth it to fully restore the L bore so it's pristine like the M bore? All it would take is relacquering. Would restoring it raise the value more than the cost of the restoration? In the case of the L bore I doubt restoring it would raise it's value more than the cost of the restoration but it might come close. It's fine to me as is.

As a collector I can tell you that the cosmetic condition of a horn does influence me in terms of arriving at a value. I'm looking for a Burbank Benge 2X+ to complete my Benge collection but I'm interested only in an example that is in extremely fine condition and needs nothing to be considered pristine or very close to pristine (like my other Benge trumpets).

The hassle of having to restore a horn to have it meet my appearance requirements has a very negative effect on the value I place on the horn. In that regard, there's a point at which the horn has no value to me at all because of the time, money and stress commitments in restoring it.

Just to be clear, a serious mechanical problem, such as having to do a valve restoration, is a deal killer for me no matter how good the cosmetics are.
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yourbrass
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2022 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:
yourbrass wrote:
the perfect setup for jazz.


Based on your signature "Calicchio 2/7 ML", that's a good example of different people having different tastes. I would pick a 3/7 or even 3/9.

Shows why people tend to have horns tweaked (whereas I just add to the collection....)


I overhauled a 2/2 ML for a customer years ago.
That's what got me started - the thing was really fun to play.
I've never been a fan of the 3 bell.
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