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Reinhardt for Beginning Band?


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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2022 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
So, if I read this correctly, this is not especially "Rheinhart". So, we're back to square one.
https://www.boptism.com/boptism-music-store/reinhardt-beginners-trumpet-cornet-flugelhorn-donald-s-reinhardt; ...

---------------
Without actually reading that book, it is impossible to determine how it relates to the current understanding of 'Reinhardt method'.

The image of the cover does show mention of
"fundamentals for proper development of the beginning brass embouchure"
and
"Teacher's Instructions Included" .

No, I have not seen or read the book.
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gwood66
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2022 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well.........as someone who owns the book, the preface states that it serves as a foundation for the Pivot System Manual of Studies and Reinhardt's Selection of Concone Studies. It also states that it can be used for individual or group instruction.

It was written by Doc Reinhardt with minor edits by Dave Sheets and Rich Willey. Not sure how much more Reinhardt it gets.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2022 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gwood66 wrote:
Well.........as someone who owns the book, ...

-------------------
Gary,
I don't question that Reinhardt is the author, the question is how the CONTENTS of the book actually relate to , or lead into the current understanding of Reinhardt.

Was the preface section that you mentioned written by Reinhardt?

Does the book actually discuss or describe the
"fundamentals for proper development of the beginning brass embouchure"?

Do you believe the book has good written content to instruct the reader about how to establish a good embouchure, and how to make embouchure adjustments depending on the range of notes.
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abontrumpet
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2022 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Destructo wrote:
The half that are within that right ballpark of a functional embouchure are there purely by luck, but they are still mostly doing stuff by mashing the mouthpiece into their face.


Exactly right. It's mostly luck who has the ingredients to become an elite player, especially without 1-on-1 instruction. Beginners tend to practice so little that intervention, if necessary, has a large window. If the student doesn't get private instruction they should be informed that it is mainly luck.

Destructo wrote:
And it's a pretty frustrating place to be as a teacher because I have to try and get them on the right path without them completely relearning how to play or forcing a direct embouchure change.

For example, the kid who is turning his lower lip out...


There's nothing inherently wrong with the appearance of turning your lower lip out. In general, getting all the other habits (breathing, sound) in line will fix most "embouchure" problems. Anytime I see a teacher getting hung up on the physical I tend to think they are not a very good teacher. I have seen hundreds of hours of live masterclasses of the world's best players and teachers and the amount of times they mentioned the embouchure I could count on 2 fingers.

Destructo wrote:
I honestly can't imagine how talking about mechanics could possibly have made things worse. Not talking about it at all, which is clearly the case, has created probably a 90% failure rate without correction/intervention.


The problem with talking about mechanics will always be that your experience and sensation on the instrument and how you "feel" things are working will never be communicable on a level that is able to transport the student to exactly your experience. Sometimes I hear people talking about mechanics and I wonder if they have ever played the trumpet with a good sound, or that we are so far off in our physical experience of the instrument that it sounds like we play two different instruments. Then you get a kid who's never played and it just makes absolutely no sense to introduce them to mechanics. Learning how to listen, how to expel the air well, and, like wilktone mentioned, sit up and bring the instrument to our face is as complicate as we should get.

As far as the 90% failure rate: our band director required every student to get private lessons and gave us all CD's with great players. The success rate was incredibly high. It is not the lack of mechanical talk that is causing failure and I'd argue that band directors talking mechanics contributes to failure.

Destructo wrote:
I get the point, that you don't want to bombard them with information that they aren't smart enough to apply. But you should at least explain more or less how the lips are postured, which is the same regardless of embouchure type.


See above. It makes no sense. I have no idea if anybody experiences my lip posturing the way I do. And I never will.

Don't get me wrong, there is a time and place for embouchure talk, but that is usually once they've hit the "advanced" stage; when their habits are rock solid, their equipment dialed in, and it is determined there is a very real impediment from the lips.


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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2022 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

abontrumpet wrote:
...

------------------------------------------
edit: text of 'abontrumpet' quote were removed because aren't needed for the discussion.

Your experience of having the 'sound goal' be the guide was important because it motivated you to find the mechanics to produce that sound. And perhaps you were lucky / skilled enough to discover how to do it.

This might be a significant part of the general advice to 'listen to great players', along with the guidance that 'you CAN sound like that, and if you are not you need to find out how to'.

How much guidance do beginners get about their sound quality? Once they produce 'any' type of trumpet sound, are they congratulated and told 'you have the right idea, now keep doing that'.
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abontrumpet
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2022 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JayKosta wrote:
How much guidance do beginners get about their sound quality? Once they produce 'any' type of trumpet sound, are they congratulated and told 'you have the right idea, now keep doing that'.


That's exactly my point! Too many music-ed majors are focused on getting something tangible they can "do" for their brass students. When the reality is that sound based instruction and broad stroke wind principles are the best they can do.

Note: I had edited most of that sentence out of my post but it seems you snagged it before I did. It ultimately was too anecdotal of an experience that would lend itself to being focused on and detract from my main point. But alas.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2022 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I’ve been combing through my emails and can’t find the Reinhardt Beginning Book. I guess I never had it. I do have the Reinhardt Concone book, which I have assigned to students, and that one is very good for development of sound, phrasing, and clean intervals.

Again, no argument that Reinhardt drills and SOME of the concepts (though definitely not all) are too advanced for most kids. That’s why I took the most basic principles and share them with the kids. Place, inhale, play is not confusing. Neither is learning that the tongue shouldn’t go between the teeth and lips.

It’s no secret that there’s a lot of misinformation in the music teaching world. If you crack open Doc Reinhardt’s encyclopedia, he discusses in tremendous depth the often ridiculous and unhelpful advice he received. A lot of this continues today.

We have the opportunity to help students by teaching them the right things, or at the very least not teaching them the WRONG things which are not based on science or logic. It is as much what you DON’T do. Simply recognizing and not passing on outdated and incorrect information makes a huge difference. A teacher who holds this knowledge can make a very positive impact.
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BeboppinFool
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2022 7:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow, look what happens when I go out of town for a week!

Doc talked a lot to me about teaching beginners. He did not bombard them with technical information, he just gave instructions that would be more conducive to embouchure development along the lines that he taught more advanced students.

For example, he used to say that you tell a student to "blow" this next phrase. Unlike John Coffey's "tongue and blow" Doc's thinking was that they might start more phrases with "breath attacks" (I prefer the term breath response) and wouldn't form bad habits by using their tongue as a crutch rather than as a refining factor.

The beginners book Doc wrote (now called Reinhardt For Beginners) did things like avoiding starting students out on low C. He introduces the elements of brass playing in a manner that would hopefully set the embouchure up for success.

I only had the opportunity to start one beginner using Doc's book, and after only a week this young boy came back with a beautiful sound and was playing from low C to G on the staff (not in the staff) like it was easy. Unfortunately he was more excited about skateboarding than trumpet and had a real creep for a band director so he stopped playing after a couple years.
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Destructo
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2022 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
There's nothing inherently wrong with the appearance of turning your lower lip out. In general, getting all the other habits (breathing, sound) in line will fix most "embouchure" problems.


Oh geez. Firstly, I don't mean subtle thing, I mean pouting the lower lip and placing it on the rolled out lip. The only way they can adjust pitch is through mouthpiece pressure. It's rolled out too far for them to be able to anything but pin it beneath the mouthpiece.

Quote:
Anytime I see a teacher getting hung up on the physical I tend to think they are not a very good teacher. I have seen hundreds of hours of live masterclasses of the world's best players and teachers and the amount of times they mentioned the embouchure I could count on 2 fingers.


This is baloney. There are plenty of masterclasses where that is the focus. There are also plenty of "artistry masterclassess" where the student plays and the clinician talks about interpretation and maybe makes a few very small technical suggetions. There are a myriad reason masterclasses don't go into talking about the embouchure/mechanics with students, number 1 being 30 minutes on stage with a student infront of their peers is not the right context to work on.

Your assumption that this is the "norm" outside of a masterclass situation is rather odd.

Quote:

The problem with talking about mechanics will always be that your experience and sensation on the instrument and how you "feel" things are working will never be communicable on a level that is able to transport the student to exactly your experience.


This may be true of some teachers. Other teachers who know what they are doing firstly listen*, and where the problem is clearly mechanical, they formulate a plan to correct it. If possible, I do it through exercises that cause the problem to resolve on its own. When more serious interventionns are required, I do interventions as a gradually process where we work on it completely separately from normal playing, so the student can continue to play. And over time, I gradually move them towards where they need to be.

Your thinking that a teacher can only see a problem through their own experience of playing is wrong. I'm not looking for *my* embouchure in a student, I'm looking for a setting where certain things are able to occur. For example, low / mid-register lip slurs are clean and not forced, and the student is free of strain.

Quote:

As far as the 90% failure rate: our band director required every student to get private lessons and gave us all CD's with great players. The success rate was incredibly high. It is not the lack of mechanical talk that is causing failure and I'd argue that band directors talking mechanics contributes to failure.

Absolutely not. The kids in my example had ~3 years of private lessons along with band. I've asked the kids about it. They didn't talk about anything but air and a good sound. None of them have a particularly good sound. They apparently spent most of those 3 years playing the same 6 or so short hymn pieces over and over.

Also, I can tell that mechanics where never discussed, because they are all playing disfuncntionally in a totally different fashion.

I'm sorry, but it sound like you don't have any personal experience in teaching students? So not sure what you're basing your very robust opinion on. Watching masterclasses is not what teaching an instrument is like.

Quote:
See above. It makes no sense. I have no idea if anybody experiences my lip posturing the way I do. And I never will.

If I listen to you play a few different things, and watch what you are doing, I will have a very good idea of how your face is working. Where it is working for you, certain conditions are being met, and where things aren't working, it's because certain deviations are happening.
This is not a "one embouchure for everyone" thing. The embouchure will develop in a direction dictated by physiology. BUT the inital conditions are really important to that happening.

Quote:
Don't get me wrong, there is a time and place for embouchure talk, but that is usually once they've hit the "advanced" stage; when their habits are rock solid, their equipment dialed in, and it is determined there is a very real impediment from the lips.

By this stage, all of their bad habits are ingrained and you've risked ruining years of their life having to overcome things that could have been solved at the start. What you're basically saying is that in your view, it's up to luck whether a kid should have any chance of success. If they work something out on their own by accident, they get to succeed and if they don't, oh well, who cares.

That, too me, is the attitude of the worst possible teacher, band director etc.

You also seem to think that talking about mechanics means saying "Okay kid, now I want you to firm your obicularis oris like this, and engage your mentalis muscle etc". That's not mechanics, that's physiology. If that's what you think it means to talk about mechanics, then you're wrong.

It's usually a case of demonstrating personally, they try it, and then you ask them to think about doing that mechanical thing in a different way. "Let's do it again, but I want you this time to imagine that _____" and you give them an analogy, and your observe and repeat with variation until the right results are obtained, or its in the ballpark. And then you tell them "That's it! Perfect." You do something else, then circle back to it.
The teaching process is demonstrating then assisting the student by finding the right words/analogy/way of thinking to prompt the right outcome. Then you are able to speak the same language about it.

For example, I very often tell students "We don't buzz when we play the trumpet." But with some of them, I work on buzzing. Ideally you get a good buzz, then from there you tell them to alternate between buzzing and just letting air past the lips in the same breath. Then you can add the trumpet ontop of the air, and they will have a good sound, and good form. Where as if you just tell the student to blow air into the instrument, theres *too many ways* for them to acheive that result, most of which are not right.

As a teacher, you're always looking for signs of *strain* because that is a indicator of a problem. You can't just hope that will magically fix itself. Practise makes permanent, not better.
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abontrumpet
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2022 5:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1.
Destructo wrote:
This is baloney. There are plenty of masterclasses where that is the focus. There are also plenty of "artistry masterclassess" where the student plays and the clinician talks about interpretation and maybe makes a few very small technical suggetions. There are a myriad reason masterclasses don't go into talking about the embouchure/mechanics with students, number 1 being 30 minutes on stage with a student infront of their peers is not the right context to work on.

Your assumption that this is the "norm" outside of a masterclass situation is rather odd.


Yes, I am aware there are differences between the masterclass setting and the private setting. But the number of world class teachers that are able to take struggling students to nearly pro level in 30 minutes has reaffirmed my experience in teaching which is that embouchure issues are further down the list than most make it out to be.

2.
Destructo wrote:
This may be true of some teachers. Other teachers who know what they are doing firstly listen*, and where the problem is clearly mechanical, they formulate a plan to correct it. If possible, I do it through exercises that cause the problem to resolve on its own. When more serious interventionns are required, I do interventions as a gradually process where we work on it completely separately from normal playing, so the student can continue to play. And over time, I gradually move them towards where they need to be.

Your thinking that a teacher can only see a problem through their own experience of playing is wrong. I'm not looking for *my* embouchure in a student, I'm looking for a setting where certain things are able to occur. For example, low / mid-register lip slurs are clean and not forced, and the student is free of strain.


Looks like we mostly agree here.

3.
Destructo wrote:
Also, I can tell that mechanics where never discussed, because they are all playing disfuncntionally in a totally different fashion.

I'm sorry, but it sound like you don't have any personal experience in teaching students? So not sure what you're basing your very robust opinion on. Watching masterclasses is not what teaching an instrument is like.


My robust opinion is based on the students I have taught, their success, and the shortcomings of previous teachers.

4.
Destructo wrote:
If I listen to you play a few different things, and watch what you are doing, I will have a very good idea of how your face is working. Where it is working for you, certain conditions are being met, and where things aren't working, it's because certain deviations are happening.
This is not a "one embouchure for everyone" thing. The embouchure will develop in a direction dictated by physiology. BUT the inital conditions are really important to that happening.


Agreed.

5.
Destructo wrote:
By this stage, all of their bad habits are ingrained and you've risked ruining years of their life having to overcome things that could have been solved at the start. What you're basically saying is that in your view, it's up to luck whether a kid should have any chance of success. If they work something out on their own by accident, they get to succeed and if they don't, oh well, who cares.

That, too me, is the attitude of the worst possible teacher, band director etc.


My point was, if a student/parent does not seek private instruction it's a crap-shoot; very much luck. Even for those people who get an undergraduate degree in performance a VERY small number of them will be financially comfortable solely playing their instrument. Let's generously say that number is 50%, that's about a luck as you can get.

The bit about solving things at the start and bad habits ingrained, yes, there is some truth in that. But sometimes BAD teachers go about solving physical issues that are actually issues with breathing or listening. So my advice for band directors is not to focus on physical because they are usually bad at diagnosing.

6.
Destructo wrote:
You also seem to think that talking about mechanics means saying "Okay kid, now I want you to firm your obicularis oris like this, and engage your mentalis muscle etc". That's not mechanics, that's physiology. If that's what you think it means to talk about mechanics, then you're wrong.

It's usually a case of demonstrating personally, they try it, and then you ask them to think about doing that mechanical thing in a different way. "Let's do it again, but I want you this time to imagine that _____" and you give them an analogy, and your observe and repeat with variation until the right results are obtained, or its in the ballpark. And then you tell them "That's it! Perfect." You do something else, then circle back to it.
The teaching process is demonstrating then assisting the student by finding the right words/analogy/way of thinking to prompt the right outcome. Then you are able to speak the same language about it.


Thank you for this clarification. You seem much more competent than your previous post illustrated. Again, mostly agree. I would still argue that you can come up with creative playing solutions rather than direct manipulation solutions for mechanics for the young student, that was my original point. Sorry if that was unclear.

One thing that I do think you're missing is that my advice is directed at the BAND-DIRECTOR in a mass setting. Not a private teacher. I am trying to leave the mechanics to the private instructor. This was the question the OP was asking. I tried to make that clear but apologies if that wasn't.


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BeboppinFool
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2022 6:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whew! I need to post a reminder that this is the Donald S. Reinhardt Forum, a place to go to find out about the teachings of Dr. Donald S. Reinhardt. This is not a place to post your opinions about how to teach or how to play.

I didn’t have time last night to read much of anything on here, and this morning I have read enough to see that we need to put the brakes on this thing which is speeding off the cliff.

Thank you for refraining from posting non-Reinhardt opinions as fact.
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Steve A
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2022 7:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

abontrumpet wrote:
1.
Destructo wrote:
This is baloney. There are plenty of masterclasses where that is the focus. There are also plenty of "artistry masterclassess" where the student plays and the clinician talks about interpretation and maybe makes a few very small technical suggetions. There are a myriad reason masterclasses don't go into talking about the embouchure/mechanics with students, number 1 being 30 minutes on stage with a student infront of their peers is not the right context to work on.

Your assumption that this is the "norm" outside of a masterclass situation is rather odd.


Yes, I am aware there are differences between the masterclass setting and the private setting. But the number of world class teachers that are able to take struggling students to nearly pro level in 30 minutes has reaffirmed my experience in teaching which is that embouchure issues are further down the list than most make it out to be.


Just my opinion, but I think there's a logical problem here that gets repeated again and again when we talk about this subject. No one is arguing that talking about air and sound concept is always wrong - it's definitely right some of the time, and probably doesn't do too much harm the rest of the time. (Not least of all because the students have probably already heard that so many times that it doesn't really change much to repeat it again.)

The issue is that not all these problems get fixed by talking about air, but a certain subset of people insist they do, and keep pointing to examples of people who were helped by talking about air as proof. That's like if a doctor prescribed, say, heart medication for everyone who came into their office. They would really help a certain percentage of people - the ones who needed heart medication - but it wouldn't do anything good for the rest, and might actually be bad for quite a few. However, if all we do is say, "look, I've never seen anyone helped by talking about embouchure, and all the people who I saw got better improved from the one and only thing everyone teaches", we're pretty much giving the same medicine to all the patients.
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abontrumpet
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2022 8:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steve A wrote:
Just my opinion, but I think there's a logical problem here that gets repeated again and again when we talk about this subject. No one is arguing that talking about air and sound concept is always wrong - it's definitely right some of the time, and probably doesn't do too much harm the rest of the time.


I agree with your post as a whole, even the bit I deleted, 100%. My argument isn't sound and air. It is that you can creatively get mechanical change without mentioning doing something physically.

Example: if I notice that there is "chewing" which is a combination of mechanical and air, I can get the student to focus on hearing the chew. I can demonstrate the chew with my playing, have them try to achieve no chew. Through this, I am changing the mechanics without mentioning -- "don't do this or that with the lips." If the student is young I probably won't mention the lips. Ultimately when the student goes into the practice room, the mechanical portion will be readily evident and hard to ignore.

When I am dealing with advanced students I have no hesitation getting into the nitty gritty of it all if I think they can handle it. But good teachers can illuminate what they are hearing in the sound and how it relates to the mechanics of what is going on. And by illuminating the aural deficiency, the student can, IMO, more quickly rectify a mechanical issue rather than putting mechanics first with no context.

Saying "more air" is just as detrimental as saying "less lips" without aural context. There's lots of bad teaching out there. But a BAND DIRECTOR in a MASS SETTING (the original question of the OP) has a duty (IMO) to leave the nitty gritty to the private teacher unless they are going to give their students lessons every week.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2022 8:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I need to post a reminder that this is the Donald S. Reinhardt Forum, a place to go to find out about the teachings of Dr. Donald S. Reinhardt. This is not a place to post your opinions about how to teach or how to play.


Rich, I think that if we can step away from the idea that dedicated forums should only be about that particular teacher's ideas for a bit we might have a constructive conversation. In my opinion, Reinhardt's ideas withstand scrutiny because it his descriptions of how brass technique functions (and malfunctions) are accurate. We can discuss the pedagogical implications of those ideas in the context of what is true. I think some healthy discussion about the best way to bring students towards good playing mechanics is worth while. Reinhardt changed his approach over the years, it's OK for us to alter ours over time as well.

Quote:
From my perspective, if we are talking about beginners in a mixed-ensemble setting in limited school hours, this is way too much information.


Yes, there are two different circumstances that it seems we're discussion. One scenario is the beginning band situation. The other would be the private lesson. Both teaching situations require different approaches.

But regarding giving the student too much information, this holds true regardless of the level of the player or their age. Different students at different points of their development can handle different amounts of information, but it is up to the teacher to prioritize what the student/students should be working on.

Reinhardt used to say to never work on more than one (or two, at the most) corrections at a time.

Quote:
I suspect Reinhart is too unique to be used universally.


Well, since the whole point of Reinhardt's pedagogy is to find what works for the unique student, then universality of the approach is the precise goal. In other words, the instructions change for the student, you don't force the student into instructions that won't or aren't working.

Quote:
I agree about not introducing the 'intricacies' of Reinhardt to beginners.


I don't introduce the intricacies of *anything* to beginners.

Quote:
The problem with talking about mechanics will always be that your experience and sensation on the instrument and how you "feel" things are working will never be communicable on a level that is able to transport the student to exactly your experience.


Yes, playing sensations are notoriously unreliable. That's one reason why I find Reinhardt's descriptions so helpful. When you get the knack for being able to see what good playing technique looks like you are able to better troubleshoot and help individual students who have issues to work out.

Quote:
It is not the lack of mechanical talk that is causing failure and I'd argue that band directors talking mechanics contributes to failure.


It's not enough to look at whether talking mechanics contributes to success or failure, we need to also look at what instructions are being given and to who. In my experience many teachers who argue that discussion of technique leads to failure arguably don't understand embouchure mechanics very well to start with.

For example, brass embouchure types exist (this is not in dispute except among people who haven't taken the time to look) and all brass musicians fit within a type (or multiple types, but that's embouchure malfunction). At the very least, a brass student's physiology must be considered because some of the embouchure types function exactly opposite from each other. Most teachers instruct their students to play the way they do. That often works great when the student happens to fit the same embouchure type, but if you're discussing playing technique to a different type of student, then of course discussion of mechanics will lead to failure.

I wouldn't try to type a beginning student's embouchure too soon, there needs to be a period of development before you can tell what's going to work best. But because I have a good understanding of the variety of embouchures, I'm not going to freak out if a student's mouthpiece placement creeps over to one side or is set on the red of the upper lip. I know enough about embouchure form to help a beginner firm the lips properly and if they are holding the instrument correctly and consistently then an unusual mouthpiece placement might just be the best place for them.

It's not the beginning brass class's students that needs to understand Reinhardt's concepts, but the teacher. That is the area where I think we're dropping the ball. Too many teachers dismiss the details of playing technique because that's not how they learned and because they don't know enough to understand how it can be helpful.

Quote:
Don't get me wrong, there is a time and place for embouchure talk, but that is usually once they've hit the "advanced" stage; when their habits are rock solid, their equipment dialed in, and it is determined there is a very real impediment from the lips.


I prefer to not qualify it as an "advanced" concept. All elements of brass technique need to coordinate. If the embouchure isn't working well, why not fix it before the student develops habits that are going to hold them back and be that much harder to fix? Again, this is up to the teacher to learn about basic embouchure mechanics and understand both what works and what doesn't for good long term playing. A lot of students get good at playing wrong and it gets left alone until it's too late for them to easily fix it.

Quote:
When the reality is that sound based instruction and broad stroke wind principles are the best they can do.


When the only tool you have in your tool box is a hammer, every student looks like a nail.

There is nothing wrong with modeling a good sound and teaching good breathing. In fact, I think these are essential. It's just one part of the overall instruction. Not to sound like a broken record, but this is up to the teacher to learn how to apply. But because brass pedagogy as a whole tends to focus almost exclusively on sound modeling and breathing as the key to embouchure development, most teachers don't learn it in school or in their lessons. We end up teaching whatever worked for us, not considering the differences.

Quote:
There are plenty of masterclasses where that is the focus. There are also plenty of "artistry masterclassess" where the student plays and the clinician talks about interpretation and maybe makes a few very small technical suggetions.


Masterclasses are a tricky thing to put into context. Put a student in front of a group of their peers and other guests and then have a charismatic and highly skilled musician work with them and you're going to get different results than with their weekly teacher. I've put some of my students up with clinicians and they heard the exact same thing I've been telling them for months, but it suddenly clicked for them in that situation. I've also watched students get jive info from a clinician, but because they were all fired up and excited that even the nonsense they got made them sound better.

I've also been on the clinician side of things and notice that getting good results in a masterclass situation usually is easier than with my regular students. The psychology of what goes on in a masterclass doesn't relate to typical teaching scenarios.

Quote:
If possible, I do it through exercises that cause the problem to resolve on its own. When more serious interventionns are required, I do interventions as a gradually process where we work on it completely separately from normal playing, so the student can continue to play. And over time, I gradually move them towards where they need to be.

...

It's usually a case of demonstrating personally, they try it, and then you ask them to think about doing that mechanical thing in a different way. "Let's do it again, but I want you this time to imagine that _____" and you give them an analogy, and your observe and repeat with variation until the right results are obtained, or its in the ballpark. And then you tell them "That's it! Perfect." You do something else, then circle back to it.
The teaching process is demonstrating then assisting the student by finding the right words/analogy/way of thinking to prompt the right outcome. Then you are able to speak the same language about it.


Those are good strategies and I use similar myself all the time. But there are some times where it's just simply easier to tell the student how to play.

Quote:
No one is arguing that talking about air and sound concept is always wrong - it's definitely right some of the time, and probably doesn't do too much harm the rest of the time.


Yes, this often gets separated into the false dichotomy you described. But as I mentioned above, this is often because the teacher is ill-equipped to do anything else because of the flaws in their own education.

Quote:
The issue is that not all these problems get fixed by talking about air, but a certain subset of people insist they do, and keep pointing to examples of people who were helped by talking about air as proof.


Yes, not to mention that even if problems are getting fixed this way there's often some adjustments that can be done elsewhere that will make things work that much better. Sometimes students get good by playing wrong and sometimes a little tweak in their embouchure mechanics helps them improve their breathing or tonguing too.

Dave
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abontrumpet
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2022 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wilktone wrote:
It's not enough to look at whether talking mechanics contributes to success or failure, we need to also look at what instructions are being given and to who. In my experience many teachers who argue that discussion of technique leads to failure arguably don't understand embouchure mechanics very well to start with.

When the only tool you have in your tool box is a hammer, every student looks like a nail.


Again, all of my points are about band directors in a mass band setting. Not the private lesson. I think taking my points out of that context are causing argument where I am not arguing.

So yes, for most band-directors, every student kind of resembles a nail. Your average music-ed grad cannot handle much more, unfortunately.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2022 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The OP's question is about classroom teaching.

This is a great discussion and I have supplemented it with two Louis Dowdeswell videos on his Reinhardt experiences with Chris LaBarbera. My take-away is that there is much confusion and urban legends about Reinhardt's teaching, and I wouldn't study Reinhardt with anyone but an experienced student of in-person teaching from Reinhardt. Nor teach the information without giving the true "transmission" (in a Buddhist sense) of the same.
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Wilktone
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2022 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

abontrumpet wrote:
Again, all of my points are about band directors in a mass band setting. Not the private lesson. I think taking my points out of that context are causing argument where I am not arguing.

So yes, for most band-directors, every student kind of resembles a nail. Your average music-ed grad cannot handle much more, unfortunately.


I'm not arguing, just discussing nuance. My point is that better teacher training will allow the average music ed major to teach embouchure technique better, both privately and in the classroom setting. Playing mechanics can be discussed in classroom situations, when appropriate and handled correctly.

The basics of what Reinhardt discovered about brass embouchure technique, just to focus on one area of his pedagogy, are not that difficult to learn about (although I argue that a different presentation works better). Once they are understood it opens up a lot of possibilities in multiple teaching settings. Yes, you can't get too personal, but you will understand which instructions are valuable for most students and which need to be personalized.

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donovan
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2022 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, everyone, for the vigorous conversation!
FWIW, I do have the Reinhardt for Beginner's book (I think I now have all of Rich's Reinhardt books . I still asked the question because I was curious what Reinhardt devotees (and those who are very knowledgable about Reinhardt) would suggest for a classroom setting.


Wilktone wrote:
Quote:
I need to post a reminder that this is the Donald S. Reinhardt Forum, a place to go to find out about the teachings of Dr. Donald S. Reinhardt. This is not a place to post your opinions about how to teach or how to play.


Rich, I think that if we can step away from the idea that dedicated forums should only be about that particular teacher's ideas for a bit we might have a constructive conversation. In my opinion, Reinhardt's ideas withstand scrutiny because it his descriptions of how brass technique functions (and malfunctions) are accurate. We can discuss the pedagogical implications of those ideas in the context of what is true. I think some healthy discussion about the best way to bring students towards good playing mechanics is worth while. Reinhardt changed his approach over the years, it's OK for us to alter ours over time as well.


I totally agree with this point, Dave. I think we should welcome more open discussion in this forum. However, when someone asks a question about "the Reinhardt way" - it would be more helpful if those who actually have experience in Reinhardt would answer (doesn't mean folks that are not as well versed can't post - but they should be wary of answering the questions if they don't know the Reinhardt methodology).

Take this post for example. I know there are tons of posts on TH about starting beginners - but I was looking for the Reinhardt take on it. I did get that (thank you!), but there was also a lot of non-Reinhardt "answers" as well.

I've taken to adding my Reinhardt info to my signature, so that folks can see when I answer, where I'm coming from. That might be a nice thing, especially when participating in this forum, is to make sure your level of Reinhardt knowledge and use is known...
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2022 9:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

(edit)
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donovan
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2022 9:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi kehaulani,

I'm not sure I understand the reason for your repost?
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