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Rotary Trumpet Tuning



 
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nltrumpet
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2022 11:18 am    Post subject: Rotary Trumpet Tuning Reply with quote

Hi y’all!

Wanted to ask about something I’ve been wrestling with for a while. I love playing my Weimann Passion C trumpet, but there is one thing about it that drives me crazy.

The 6th partial (namely F# and G on top of the staff) tend to run on the low side of the pitch. I’ve tried different removable leadpipes, mouthpieces, and even loosening the screws on the horn (and there’s a lot of em!), which have helped a little bit. These notes can be brought up serviceably well, but can pose more of a problem when fatigued or playing very softly.

Has anyone else had this issue when playing on rotary trumpets? If so, I’d appreciate any solutions or advice. Thanks!
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2022 12:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have you tried alternate fingerings?
e.g. 123 for F# , and 13 for G.
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mr oakmount
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2022 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's interesting. Normally you have to be super-careful on C trumpets (of all valve types) not to let the G on top of the stave come out too sharp.

Are d2, eb2 and e2 also very flat? In that case there could be a problem with the main tuning slide having too large a diameter compared to what follows. I had a similar problem cured with the insertion of a (slightly more narrow) tube inserted into one side of the main slide, creating something like a mild step-bore (obviously this was done by an expert trumpet builder). It did increase resistance a bit, but I actually liked that.

I would however start with mouthpieces with different backbores. My favourite is a Breslmair G1 or G2 with a P or 2-18 backbore with gives my rotaries a warm tone, but with tight control. You can get them with tratitional Viennese rims (G), but you can also get US-Style rims if you prefer that. The V is 1.25C inspired, the H is in shouting distance of a 1.5C
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loudog
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2022 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would say this is a characteristic of Weimann Passion C trumpets... I haven't noticed anything with the F#, but my high G is really well in tune, but sometimes can tend to be a little bit low.

What mouthpiece do you use? I've found that "rotary mouthpiece" such as Breslmair, Josef Klier, etc. do not work very well, but regular old American style mouthpieces do. I play a Parke 660-280-24 with an Orchestral 24 backbore most of the time and it works perfectly with my Weimann. I also sometimes will use a Toshi MTV 1CB 24/24 that also works very well. All of my Breslmairs and Kliers sit in my mouthpiece box now.
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nltrumpet
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2022 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JayKosta wrote:
Have you tried alternate fingerings?
e.g. 123 for F# , and 13 for G.


Yes, but they aren't ideal when put in context of a line, and neither is the color. I have pulled those out before in a performance, though.

mr oakmount wrote:
Are d2, eb2 and e2 also very flat?


No. In fact, probably better in tune than any of my other C trumpets.

Using one of the smaller removable lead pipes has helped with intonation, creating a similar kind of step-bore feature. I too, like the increased resistance it gives.

I have been using a Breslmair MV3C rim, either a G2 or Bach 1-1/2B copy, and the P Backbore.

loudog wrote:
What mouthpiece do you use?


I typically use a Bach Symphonic 1-1/2C 25/24, and the intonation is generally a little better. I only wish I could get a little bit more of the rotary sound out of the Bach setup, but I guess that's digging a hole for myself.
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Aspeyrer
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2022 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I’ve noticed the same on most rotary trumpets I’ve played. I currently use a Ricco Kuhn C and run lower on that top space G & F# than on my piston C.
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Brassnose
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2022 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have you considered contacting Weimann?
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picctpt33
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2022 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I’m interested in this too. I have the same issues on my Weimann Passion
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abontrumpet
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2022 1:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nltrumpet wrote:
I have been using a Breslmair MV3C rim, either a G2 or Bach 1-1/2B copy, and the P Backbore.

I typically use a Bach Symphonic 1-1/2C 25/24, and the intonation is generally a little better. I only wish I could get a little bit more of the rotary sound out of the Bach setup, but I guess that's digging a hole for myself.


Based on your answers here it sounds like the P backbore may be shifting things out of tune for you. I'd go with something with the depth/shape of the G2 but with a slightly more tame backbore.

For reference I play a JK 4CA2 with my Schagerl and have very manageable intonation. I'd recommend trying a JK, they are super balanced IMO. I do not get along with Breslmair or Weimann.
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nltrumpet
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2022 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brassnose wrote:
Have you considered contacting Weimann?


I have recently written them about this issue. They don't always respond to my emails, but I understand they are a small company and that I'm writing in a foreign language.

abontrumpet wrote:
Based on your answers here it sounds like the P backbore may be shifting things out of tune for you. I'd go with something with the depth/shape of the G2 but with a slightly more tame backbore.

For reference I play a JK 4CA2 with my Schagerl and have very manageable intonation. I'd recommend trying a JK, they are super balanced IMO


I think that's what I'll do next. I did try a JK almost a year ago. I liked a lot about it (including the intonation), but the depth was maybe a little much for me and the 3.7 drill definitely didn't gel with me.
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delano
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2022 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is also a Classic-Exclusive serial 4CA2 with a 3.8 bore.
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mr oakmount
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2022 4:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I often use mouthpieces with a deeper cup and/or wider bore and/or wider backbore to bring that g2 down.

By the same token, you could try a flatter cup or narrow bore to push that g2 up. I would not use a backbore that is too narrow at the onset as not to cancel out the typical rotary trumpet sound.

Staying with Breslmair (they work best for me), you could experiment with a G2S, G2A of even G3 cup and/or a 2-18 or AL8 Backbore.
Actually the 2-18 Backbore is supposed to "tighten" intonation and slotting.

I underwent a 20 year "phase" where I thought little of Breslmair (maybe in resistance to my teachers in Vienna who insisted on G2, no matter what), but now that I can dial in the perfect combination of rim, cup and backbore for all my instruments, I have become a big fan again.
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nltrumpet
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2022 8:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mr oakmount wrote:
By the same token, you could try a flatter cup or narrow bore to push that g2 up.

Staying with Breslmair (they work best for me), you could experiment with a G2S, G2A of even G3 cup and/or a 2-18 or AL8 Backbore.


My Bach 1-1/2B cup copy definitely helps bring it more up to center than the G2, especially when playing softly and I can't "blow it” into tune as much. I think it measures somewhere in the range of the other cups you mentioned

Looking at Breslmair's backbore volume chart, the 2-18 and AL8 are slightly smaller than the P. Unfortunately, the table doesn't offer much in terms of what the backbore shapes look like.

I think I've narrowed it down (pun intended) to the L, S, and maybe the 3 backbore. If anyone has experience with these backbore models, I'd love to hear it.
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mr oakmount
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2022 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In my experience, the L backbore is wide-ish for "pump" valve and narrow-ish for Rotary valve instruments, probably a good compromise. It does work, but sounds a bit more bright and direct on my rotaries than I would prefer,
unless I have to cut through a wind band.

The S Backbore has the same "shape" as the L, but is tighter still; ok on my Bb but too tight/bright for my C rotary. I had a G3 (with a 3 backbore) last century, I remember it as slightly too bright, but that might have been more the shallow cup than the backbore. The 3 should be somewhete in the "P" ballpark.

As for Breslmair backbore shapes and sizes, they use the "BiX" index on their website. Mr Matthias Beck of Germany came up with this (you can order the measurement tool at his shop, there is also a you tube video in German).
https://www.musikbeck.de/backbore_bix/
It measures the backbore with four different scales in 4 different positions:

1 right after the bore
2 beginning of the middle part
3 end of the middle part
4 before the exit

So you come up with a 4 digit code.
E.G: The 7C backbore (66) would be 5110 - not too narrow when it enters the shaft, but then tight and fast.
Both L and S are both 5442, but if you filled L with water, it would have a slightly larger volume. The big Viennese backbores are in the 8875 region ("1")

Here's how to get the information:
Go to
https://breslmair.com/product-category/trompete/

Then scroll down until you see TABELLENÜBERSICHT.
Click TROMPETE and then Stängel, then you see all the measurements.

Hope that helps, good luck!
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