| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Shaft
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Sep 2006
Posts: 981
|
 Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2022 7:10 am Post subject: |
 |
|
“Rules”
To hell with the rules for equipment (whatever that means). Make music
Seriously under performing is not much different than saying not able to do something. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
lipshurt
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Feb 2008
Posts: 2642
Location: vista ca
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2022 11:20 am Post subject: |
|
|
One of the all time greats, lew soloff was fond of doing mouthpiece demos at his clinics where he showed how mouthpieces work and why choosing the right one for the situation was important to being your best. Later today I may describe how he presented it, but I have to run. Probably lots of people saw him do that and could chime in
_________________
Mouthpiece Maker
vintage Trumpet design enthusiast
www.meeuwsenmouthpieces.com
www.youtube.com/lipshurt |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Vin DiBona
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2003
Posts: 1473
Location: OHare area
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2022 4:05 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Roger Ingram is a friend. We played in our Wednesday trumpet ensemble this morning and I know exactly what he uses for that and what he uses for upper register lead. They are close in size, but not in depth.
I've heard him scream out a G above high C on a 1C. When he put it down he said that isn't one for extreme lead. We've also heard him go above double C on his legit mouthpiece. (The man is simply astonishing. His sound is fabulous).
The man is so skilled, what ever he puts in his horn, he sounds like Roger, but he is not going to make it harder than necessary.
A great lead player of some years ago, Johnny Howell played lead at the old Mill Run Theater on a 1C. He did not play much above G above high C. His sound was also astonishing.
Some times it is not what you can play, it is what you should play.
R. Tomasek |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Shaft
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Sep 2006
Posts: 981
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2022 5:52 pm Post subject: |
|
|
That’s just it. In all seriousness I mean no offense to the OP or anyone into trumpet playing when I say to hell with “rules for equipment”
This morning I mentioned the topic to Jim Manley and he said that the best advice he ever got on mpcs was to play the smallest mp you can as long as the sound is good throughout the range of the horn.
Then he sent me a vid of the Stamp exercise going down to the pedal and back up to above the staff. Just in your face resonant and a sound anyone would want. Then a second vid on the same setup playing lyrical and how an intimate jazz setting would be. Great tone and appropriate.
Pops told me once to keep the same rim size if I am changing styles and timbres because its just an easier transition on the lips.
Its like the thing with degrees, I don’t care what an artist uses on stage or what credentials they have. If they are using the right tools for the job and an appropriate sound is coming out that’s all the audience even cares about.
Noone is going to come out and say that’s an unapproved cup shape, depth, size, etc. I realize for decades people used to say cheater mpc, and legit mpc, etc. Those people can stay in that paradigm if they want to. I’m not concerned with changing people’s perception however I will voice an opinion that is opposed to that mindset.
Whether its Conical vs. cylindrical, .590 ID .438 bore etc etc. I cannot think of anything except regulated sports or some industries for safety reasons where equipment size is scrutinized for any reason. Yes there are idiomatic equipment choices for styles, genres, and settings, but I wouldn’t ask Bud Herseth to do Mahler’s 5th on a vocabell with a Shilke 14a4a and say you know man…… You underperformed that and I want my ticket money back.
Again, its fun to wonder but noone is going to change what they play because someone else thinks they should use mpc and horn x.
Again not being rude, just the opinion where I’m at. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Destructo
Veteran Member
Joined: 18 Apr 2022
Posts: 172
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2022 6:22 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Shaft wrote: | | That’s just it. In all seriousness I mean no offense to the OP or anyone into trumpet playing when I say to hell with “rules for equipment” |
Not sure why you think that would cause offense to me! That's kind of my whole point in a nutshell.
| Quote: | This morning I mentioned the topic to Jim Manley and he said that the best advice he ever got on mpcs was to play the smallest mp you can as long as the sound is good throughout the range of the horn.
Then he sent me a vid of the Stamp exercise going down to the pedal and back up to above the staff. Just in your face resonant and a sound anyone would want. Then a second vid on the same setup playing lyrical and how an intimate jazz setting would be. Great tone and appropriate
|
Absolutely. I actually did really have Jim Manley in mind when thinking about this. I've heard the same demo you mentioned and I think he's doing it on something equivalent to a bach 20 and a shallow cup? Don't know exactly, I just know he plays very 'small' equipment by conventional terms, and sounds like a monster.
I can't speak for Jim, but I would guess that if we asked him how he'd go trying to playing like he does for more than 5 minutes on a big, deep mouthpiece he'd probably say "I wouldn't even want to try it!".
| Quote: | Roger Ingram is a friend. We played in our Wednesday trumpet ensemble this morning and I know exactly what he uses for that and what he uses for upper register lead. They are close in size, but not in depth.
I've heard him scream out a G above high C on a 1C. When he put it down he said that isn't one for extreme lead. We've also heard him go above double C on his legit mouthpiece. (The man is simply astonishing. His sound is fabulous). |
I think this is where the confusion happens though. I don't doubt that people can play extremely high and even loudly on a big mouthpiece, but the question is for how long, and if they were doing it for any length of time, how would they fare? For example, if Roger (or anyone, this is not about Roger specifically) decided to try playing only on a 1C for eveything he has to do, how long before he is beating his chops up and falling into problematic habits etc. I'm not saying I know the answer, I'm just asking the question!
For me personally, a big mouthpiece is sometimes easier to access the extreme upper register on, because it's more forgiving of mashing and muscling, and with good form is okay provided I'm not forcing volume out. Volume of sound, endurance and articulation, however, are an issue for me on big stuff.
I can slur up to a ~MF double C on a cornet mouthpiece and it's not that hard. But If you asked me to just sit on a 4th ledger G, and articulate it a bunch of times, it'd be a dogs breakfast. I also couldn't sit up there for any length of time without beating myself up. I might struggle through O Holy Night or something, and probably be able to muscle out the double A. I'd probably be toast though for the Double D, and if I managed it, no one would likely hear it over the band without a microphone.
Hopefully it's obvious - I really don't mean this as any sort of bragging. I don't think any of that is a meaningful representation of anything much at all about upper register playing ability, which is kind of my point.
| Quote: | | A great lead player of some years ago, Johnny Howell played lead at the old Mill Run Theater on a 1C. He did not play much above G above high C. His sound was also astonishing. |
Absolutely, some folks are fine to do that. I think the key there is a matter of ease. I assume if Howell were struggling like crazy to do that, he wouldn't have be playing it on a 1C. But for him, he experienced sufficient ease doing that to make it a non-issue.
But most players probably would struggle and I don't think that working at it would neccessarily result in developing ease, it'd always feel like a struggle?
| Quote: | | Some times it is not what you can play, it is what you should play |
Yes! That's a beautiful way of putting it, thank you. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Robert P
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2013
Posts: 2595
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2022 6:53 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| delano wrote: | | My experience is that pros like those can play anything on any mouthpiece from a 10.5C to a 1X and you will not hear big differences. |
Can you elaborate on the details of your experience on this point?
When Allen Vizzutti says unequivocally that the mouthpiece makes a difference I give that a lot of weight.
I also give a lot of weight to the fact that it's a lot easier for me to play higher notes on a Yamaha Bobby Shew Lead or Yamaha Allen Vizzutti than on a Bach 1C and that the sound is very different.
_________________
Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Flugel |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Shaft
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Sep 2006
Posts: 981
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2022 7:41 pm Post subject: |
|
|
You’re good. You never gave me a reason to think you would be offended.
In fact in some ways we come to the same conclusions.
You actually come at the topic with more of a realistic understanding than
some do when questioning the legitimacy of using the right tool for the job
in the extreme register as its sometimes referred. Some of what I mentioned
was for that point of view that we have all witnessed over the years.
No doubt many of us would not try to make things harder for any situation.
Didn’t Arturo do a lot of work on a 3C size mpc? Pretty big to some people. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
herbievantetering
Regular Member
Joined: 18 Jul 2023
Posts: 14
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2023 10:14 pm Post subject: |
|
|
One should go for the mouthpiece that feels right.
Miles Davis did not have a shallow mouthpiece and he sounded great and was way up there with tone and range.
Classical players don't have a small shallow mouthpiece and can play double high A accurately and with taste.
There's no such thing as 'muscling' when you play with taste and develop a sound. Nothing is easy, and also, dynamics and playing 'mp' or 'p' goes a long way.
My classical teacher always said, select a mouthpiece where you can reasonably and only just get the high note. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Shaft
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Sep 2006
Posts: 981
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 20, 2023 6:47 pm Post subject: |
|
|
What?
Miles Davis did not “get way up there.”
(Not even getting into intonation or sound quality above the staff.)
“Classical players playing dbl A on their big mpc.”?
- this was what we were in agreement on earlier….
Yes it can be done however…
Everyone’s favorite classical players may play those notes to demonstrate its possible but are they going to play an entire night on lead, go on the road like Maynard and have that brilliance and sound concept of a lead player and choose to use that equipment for that job? If so more power to ‘em. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
herbievantetering
Regular Member
Joined: 18 Jul 2023
Posts: 14
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2023 10:45 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Miles Davis did not “get way up there”?
Yes he did, and so did Wallace Roney.
People listen to Miles and your average John Doe lead player, they always keep coming back to Miles. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Shaft
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Sep 2006
Posts: 981
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2023 2:48 am Post subject: |
|
|
Incorrect and Argumentum ad populum is a logical fallacy in debate.
You have not convinced me.
2 things though
1 - define “way up there” for the trumpet world please.
(Whatever note you like as the threshold.)
2 - “Average Joe lead player” goes back to Miles
(That would makes sense actually 🙄 - key word being average) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
